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Thread: War on drugs.

  1. #71
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Are you referring to the states of Portugal?

    In Lisbon you can possess any small amount of drug. You call it marijuana but its real name is cannabis -- cannabis is decriminalized in all the states. In the capital no one will do anything if you are smoking a joint in the streets. Of course, there is cultural politeness, so people will have discretion, but from a legal standpoint they can't be tossed in jail and have their lives ruined over it.



    Any system that criminalizes small possession is not only completely inefficient, it is also ethically vile. In many U.S. states, small possession of opiates or heroin is a felony charge. That's just ridiculous.

    The reason why it treats addicts like monsters is because it's addicts who are in the most risky position to get caught. They have medical need of the substance so will play russian roulette with the law more readily. Combined with this, the medical system stigmatizes addicts because simply admitting you are high to most medical personnel will get you the third degree. De-couple the law from the medicine, and harm reduction will increase greatly. Then there will be less outbursts, violence, self-hurt, cries for help, etc.

    As it stands, only the affluent get this kind of "fair" treatment, or better The people of privilege who do drugs in this country, like the people in white collar professions, politicians, or simply the wealthy, get
    off scott free. So not only is the system inefficient, it's partial.



    Another ambiguous statement. Sorry to give you the third degree, but you really need to be more specific. Every drug has a different socio-politico-economic profile.

    Alcohol causes the most violence and property damage per capita. It's also addictive. Can you explain that one to me?



    I don't understand the logical disconnect here. You admit all that, yet still favor punishment? How can you punish someone who is harming themselves? It's pretty much the opposite of what they need.

    You acknowledge all that, yet won't acknowledge criminalizing them is just adding one more bain to their existence. There is no evidence that law-enforced recovery is lasting. If the addict doesn't choose their recovery then their success profile is low. They will have access to their drug of choice regardless if it's legal or not, because blackmarket saturation is high in many parts of North America.

    So, to summarize:
    1) We can't keep drugs out.
    2) We can't keep people from doing them.
    3) Law enforcement is not increasing long-term recovery rates.
    4) Drug enforcement as it looks now is an economic drain, and causes many opportunity costs for those processed in the system.
    5) It's not impartially enforced. People of privilege and affluence not only do the drugs, they are often the source of their entry into this country.
    6) The drug economy exists in the billions of dollars as an underground system, controlled by gangs who are violent savages, resulting in even more social problems.

    The list goes on.

    Reagan tried. He had a pipe dream (no pun intended) about what drugs were doing to this country. IMO it was just another pet cause to shore up votes, but it was also a government power grab. He thought he could stop it, however well intended or deluded that was. But it didn't work.

    What we need to do now is cut through the brainwashing of the past several decades, which is what cannabis law has started to do.

    People who are in favor of drug laws really need to examine the HISTORY of the drug in question, and the government's role in oppressing it.
    It has been my experience that those who are willing to break one law will often break others because they have little regard for them. Some of the loudest voices in favor of decriminalizing marijuana to possession of the hard stuff, are more than willing to regulate the hell out of cigarettes (a legal substance) and treat smokers like second class citizens. Hypocrisy at its finest.

    An article coming out of the UK just 5 short months ago shows their little experiment of going "soft" on cannabis has come with a price. I'll post the link but no doubt someone will find fault with the source or the content of the article because it does not agree with their views on the matter.
    The price of going soft on cannabis: Labour's experiment 'pushed up hard drug use and crime' | Mail Online
    Last edited by vesper; 08-26-13 at 02:49 AM.

  2. #72
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    An article coming out of the UK just 5 short months ago shows their little experiment of going "soft" on cannabis has come with a price. I'll post the link but no doubt someone will find fault with the source or the content of the article because it does not agree with their views on the matter.
    The price of going soft on cannabis: Labour's experiment 'pushed up hard drug use and crime' | Mail Online
    someone will find fault with the source or the content of the article because it does not agree with their views on the matter

    Either that or, someone will point out the faults with the content and you'll ignore it because it does not agree with your view on the matter.

    We evaluate the effects on crime of a localized policing experiment that decriminalized cannabis possession in the London borough of Lambeth between 2001 and 2002. We find that decriminalization led to a surge in drug related offences, and a collapse in arrest and clear-up rates for drug related crimes in Lambeth. These effects are quantitatively large and persist well after the policy experiment ends. However, the policy does allow the Lambeth police to reallocate their effort towards non-drug related crimes, leading to permanent reductions in nearly all other crime types. We also find the policy to have spillovers onto boroughs neighboring Lambeth. As drug consumers and suppliers relocate to Lambeth after decriminalization, drug crime rates significantly fall in neighbors to Lambeth. To understand the benefits of coordinating drugs policies across jurisdictions, we compare these results to the effects on crime of the nationwide decriminalization of cannabis in the UK from 2004 to 2009.

    We find that nationwide decriminalization does not lead to a growth in drugs related crime, but does allow the police to reallocate effort towards non-drug related crime. We interpret the results through a Hotelling-style model that makes precise the behavioral response to decriminalization of the police, suppliers and demanders of drugs.
    http://www.iza.org/conference_files/...nell_b6110.pdf

    Just looking at Lambeth isn't a meaningful study to determine the effect of national decriminalization.
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  3. #73
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Actually Grendel, I am paying very close attention to those with opposing views from my own. I always find it very important to do so because how else would I be able to test my own beliefs? There are multiple articles from countries that are attempting to decriminalize drugs. Both sides of the issue are well documented. Weeding through them can be tedious because much of them are not based in facts but spin from special interest groups. And what I have concluded is with the lack of personal responsibility and common sense in our society as it stands today, it would be a major FAIL to decriminalize drugs.
    Make it a great day.

  4. #74
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Continuing a war on drugs is the stupidest possible thing to do.
    There has to be a better way.

    Legalize all of them, BUT, control .....
    If we do not have the quality of people for this "control", then, just legalize marajuana..
    State by state, we can learn from each other...if we cannot, then return to the police state of the 1600s....or the 1950s..
    But, I feel that we do have the quality of people for at least legal marajuana....
    And, for the record, I'd NOT touch any drug with a twenty foot pole !
    My meds are bad enough...

  5. #75
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    In theory, I'm pro-legalization of everything.

    In practice, living in the midst of an irresponsible society and being disgusted with the dishonesty and ignorance of the pro-legalization movement, I'm on the fence about supporting medical marijuana.
    I think that the quality of people is higher than we know....Do not go by what this opinionated old man has to say.....
    "Medical marajuana = "Medical alcohol" - equally foolish and stupid..
    All of our law-makers must return to school...a GOOD school !

  6. #76
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Oh that all sounds all well and good having the weed growing next to the corn and soy beans on private land and corporate farms. Of course they would have to be licenced, and most likely have a limit on the amount they could grow. But what is stopping someone who is not licensed to start his own business? California since they passed their marijuana laws have a real problem with illegal growers. Colorado is reporting the same What the government will give you for 40 bucks, the illegal grower then will offer it at a lower price after all, he doesn't have to hassle with all the rules and regulations and he has a nice clientele in students who are either to young to purchase it or can't afford it.

    thanks but no thanks.
    Licensed and limited? that doesn't sound like legalization to me. If I decide to grow tomatoes in my back yard, no one tells me I can't, do they? I can plant corn, squash, anything I like in my garden. If I can grow my own cheaper than the commercial growers, more power to me.

    We don't see illegal growers raising their own tobacco in any appreciable quantities, nor do we see them creating "plantations" in the national parks and forests, shooting at "trespassers" to protect their crop, and then leaving behind a mess of irrigation pipes and chemicals when they take their harvest and flee the scene. Were pot legal, we wouldn't see such plantations of weed, either.
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  7. #77
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    It has been my experience that those who are willing to break one law will often break others because they have little regard for them. Some of the loudest voices in favor of decriminalizing marijuana to possession of the hard stuff, are more than willing to regulate the hell out of cigarettes (a legal substance) and treat smokers like second class citizens. Hypocrisy at its finest.
    How is maintaining that the government can allow you to smoke the weed that is highly addictive, slowly kills you, and endangers anyone in the vicinity, yet tell you that the weed that does none of those things and has proven medical qualities is prohibited for hypocrisy?

    Come to think of it, how is calling for limited government while wanting that government to decide what we may or may not put into our bodies not hypocritical? The question is not whether smoking pot is a good idea or not, but who should decide? Liberals want the government to decide everything.
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  8. #78
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    It has been my experience that those who are willing to break one law will often break others because they have little regard for them. Some of the loudest voices in favor of decriminalizing marijuana to possession of the hard stuff, are more than willing to regulate the hell out of cigarettes (a legal substance) and treat smokers like second class citizens. Hypocrisy at its finest.
    Look, I'm not really interested in your nitpicking. The data and research are what they are. All you are quoting are right-wing articles. You haven't countered much of what I've said.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    An article coming out of the UK just 5 short months ago shows their little experiment of going "soft" on cannabis has come with a price. I'll post the link but no doubt someone will find fault with the source or the content of the article because it does not agree with their views on the matter.
    The price of going soft on cannabis: Labour's experiment 'pushed up hard drug use and crime' | Mail Online
    The article mentions who did the study but not the name of it, so I can't look up the abstract. That's shoddy reporting. Almost every study on drug use I've seen quoted in the mass media is a distorted version of what the original study said or the study itself has a flawed methodology but it was cherry picked because of its right-wing conclusions. Don't use the media to do your research. Based on your previous comments this is your downfall because a lot of the information you're spouting is either obsolete or has been debunked.

    The war on drugs is a farce. I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you. If you've decided that the punitive model is best, then there's no changing your mind. I think it's outrageous the number of people in the U.S. who are in jail for small possession. It's a victimless crime and people should not be tossed away for life over it, like in states with the three strikes rule.

    There is no evidence that decriminalization of cannabis is the gateway to more crime anymore than it's the gateway to other drugs. It's a medicine and people should have the right to use it if they want. It's not hurting anyone.

    The crime people commit because of cannabis is NOTHING compared to the crimes committed on alcohol. ADDRESS THAT.

  9. #79
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Licensed and limited? that doesn't sound like legalization to me. If I decide to grow tomatoes in my back yard, no one tells me I can't, do they? I can plant corn, squash, anything I like in my garden. If I can grow my own cheaper than the commercial growers, more power to me.

    We don't see illegal growers raising their own tobacco in any appreciable quantities, nor do we see them creating "plantations" in the national parks and forests, shooting at "trespassers" to protect their crop, and then leaving behind a mess of irrigation pipes and chemicals when they take their harvest and flee the scene. Were pot legal, we wouldn't see such plantations of weed, either.
    Why wouldn't pot or any other drug be treated any differently than cigarettes and alcohol? Earth to dittohead not! over?
    If you think legalizing marijuana is going to stop illegal growing, not according to the states that have.
    Tell that to the law enforcement in California as soon as their marijuana laws were passed. Countless number of illegal crops popped up that the law enforcement couldn't keep up with it. The stuff illegally grown there has been traced to 50 other states which may be why marijuana use is up in teens across the country. Oregon even though it was the first state to decriminalize possession of marijuana, and later passed medical marijuana had a huge hike in drug use within their state especially Portland after California to the South and Washington to the North passed their more liberal marijuana laws. And often those trafficking marijuana are found to be in possession of hard drugs as well. Colorado after passing their liberal marijuana laws are having the same problem California did of unlicensed growers illegally raising crops for market. Their neighboring states Nebraska and Kansas are so damn fed up with the sh*t being trafficked into their state that they are proposing legislation to go after Colorado for allowing the trafficking into their states over the burden of cost to keep the stuff out. So don't tell me if the damn drug was legalized and supposedly regulated by government that it would stop illegal growing. Since when did government do anything efficiently? And if they did how much more would that cost the taxpayers?
    Last edited by vesper; 08-26-13 at 03:25 PM.

  10. #80
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    There is no evidence that decriminalization of cannabis is the gateway to more crime anymore than it's the gateway to other drugs. It's a medicine and people should have the right to use it if they want. It's not hurting anyone.

    The crime people commit because of cannabis is NOTHING compared to the crimes committed on alcohol. ADDRESS THAT.
    Why address it? For every study you can claim that crimes committed by alcohol are far greater than cannabis users there's a study to prove that false.

    Game over. See you at the polls!

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