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Thread: War on drugs.

  1. #61
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Last I checked, at least half of the states have passed some form of decriminalization on the possession of marijuana. That is the issue correct? Certainly a wide selection of states for people to move if it is that important to them. Who is treating addicts like monsters? Not me. However, some drugs do have a history of making people violent. I have nothing but pity for addicts for because of their addiction they are not a free person. I've watched them destroy their health, lose their wealth, and create a living hell for their families and loved ones. Because of what I've observed personally no doubt has a role in why I am strongly against the legalization.
    Colorado and Washington have legalized recreational use of pot. Several states have legalized medical marijuana. It still remains illegal at the federal level, however.
    Real legalization would see it grown commercially on private farmland, just like everything from corn to peanuts is grown on private farmland. The illegal operations on public land we see today would not be profitable, and so would stop.
    As long as the government didn't impose truly draconian taxes and regulations, there is no way that the illegal growers could possibly compete with the legitimate ones. Cartels and the guy on the street corner would be out of business. Moreover, the licensed dealers would not jeopardize their license by selling to minors, or, if they did, they'd soon be out of business. There would be more control than there is now.

    So, unless you enjoy being a part of that 5% of the world population that is supporting 25% of the prisoners, you really need to look closely at legalization.
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  2. #62
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Yes, small amounts, but not anywhere near as much as there is in a market that exists entirely as a criminal enterprise.



    Not in any way even remotely as bad as it did during prohibition. Yes, there are still minor operations squeeking by, but it's not a vast and deadly gangland economy like it was during prohibition. You seem to be saying if we can't get rid of illegal markets 100%, then we should have a 100% illegal market. That doesn't make any sense.




    I don't think it would be permitted, I think that it would happen, and it would be negligible. That's what I said. Also, it still may well be permitted. After all, you're still allowed to brew your own beer and press your own wine. I knew a guy once, terrible hopeless alcoholic, who only drank honey-meade he made himself because it was about $6 for like 5 or 6 gallons of it. Perfectly legal.

    The point is, the black market for reefer would be reduced to negligible levels as soon as legalization happened. That there would still be small time operations doesn't in any way negate the value of elimitaing what would probable be over 99% of the black market. That's on top of the other benefits.
    Your blowing off the black market on cigarettes as being minor is baloney. Using the example of moonshine was to show you once something becomes legal and is taxed, there still remains an illegal market and when it is discovered by law enforcement it becomes a felony. People don't like being raped over taxes so there is more than a few purchasing their whiskey free of taxation. And the one producing it is doing so free of fees for licences and a book full of government regulations (another word for hidden taxes). So though it isn't as bad as prohibition, it's still a lucrative business for many of tax free dollars.

    I keep reading a lot about how legalizing drugs will end the black market because people will be able to buy their drugs cheaper regulated by the government and taxed of course. An end to cartels. Yeah the cartels would loose a good part of their business from those who are of legal age (21 ?) that will be able to purchase them but what makes you think it will stop them from going after the kids who can't buy them legally?

    And then there is something from our history when opiates and heroin were legal up to the first part of the 20th century I find relevant. When government started taxing the drugs and tariffs on the drugs increased, the black market thrived mainly through China smuggling in the drugs to avoid the high tariffs and was able to offer them on the street for less than the government allowed.

    And the most disingenuous argument given in this thread are those who claim there will be no huge increase in addicts....... even my libertarian friends acknowledge that one. Because there are two reasons why we don't have more of our population using drugs for recreation. 1. they can't afford them. 2. because they are illegal. If you take away both those barriers we as a nation would see a great increase in drug addiction which comes with it a huge price tag for social welfare services and law enforcement for a number of reasons.
    Last edited by vesper; 08-25-13 at 09:45 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: War on drugs.

    I support the legalization of everything, as long as people understand what that means.

    Use would be criminalized in the same way as alcohol (public use would be prohibited, as well as operation of a vehicle). If a private employer doesn't want it and fires someone for any drug, it'd be legal. If your insurance premiums increase because of use, it'd be okay.

    Basically, legalize it all and impart knowledge on the populace as to the ramifications of its use. If they accept that...knock yourselves out.

  4. #64
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Colorado and Washington have legalized recreational use of pot. Several states have legalized medical marijuana. It still remains illegal at the federal level, however.
    Real legalization would see it grown commercially on private farmland, just like everything from corn to peanuts is grown on private farmland. The illegal operations on public land we see today would not be profitable, and so would stop.
    As long as the government didn't impose truly draconian taxes and regulations, there is no way that the illegal growers could possibly compete with the legitimate ones. Cartels and the guy on the street corner would be out of business. Moreover, the licensed dealers would not jeopardize their license by selling to minors, or, if they did, they'd soon be out of business. There would be more control than there is now.

    So, unless you enjoy being a part of that 5% of the world population that is supporting 25% of the prisoners, you really need to look closely at legalization.
    Oh that all sounds all well and good having the weed growing next to the corn and soy beans on private land and corporate farms. Of course they would have to be licenced, and most likely have a limit on the amount they could grow. But what is stopping someone who is not licensed to start his own business? California since they passed their marijuana laws have a real problem with illegal growers. Colorado is reporting the same What the government will give you for 40 bucks, the illegal grower then will offer it at a lower price after all, he doesn't have to hassle with all the rules and regulations and he has a nice clientele in students who are either to young to purchase it or can't afford it.

    thanks but no thanks.

  5. #65
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    . . .
    Right, and that is one of the strongest arguments for legalization.
    The drug dealers are indeed leaches in society. People who do not pay taxes, yet use capitalism to charge as much as the market will allow.
    Legalization ends this problem.
    That is one of the most foolish arguments out there. It's like the people who imagine that the Mexican drug cartels will become law abiding citizens if recreational narcotics are legalized.

    Such people are professional criminals first and foremost, and will always seek illicit activities.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  6. #66
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    I have grandchildren.
    But I am glad to know that you've reached a point where you have nothing intelligent to say and have begun to base your argument on nothing more than petty insults.
    Then I recommend that you provide your progeny with a good example of mature thinking. Children can be of any age, I have found. It is terribly sad to find them in adult bodies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    Oh I see, so you are an EMT in the wilderness without roads. I can clearly see that your experience in such matters must be vast.
    I have also been one in a major urban setting, as well as the Air Force. My experience is rather extensive. Embracing it is one of the several aspects of my nature that gives rise to a superior intellect, and the production of more valuable and valid insights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    That is just ridiculous speculation based from ignorance and your extremely limited experiences and ideas. Some of the most productive people I have known smoke pot, as well as some of the least.
    And some of the most produictive people I've known and in the historical record have been profound alcoholics. Your point?
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  7. #67
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbrettt View Post
    No, I wanted to point out that personal experiences typically aren't a good representation of all people. Consider the population of the US and then consider how many people you know in those situations. I've had personal experiences with alcoholics. I think I can say I've seen the worst of the worst in alcoholism. People who were once contributing members of society rendered unable to function. I've also seen many potheads unaffected by pot in how successful they are, how well they function. Regardless, our personal experiences are hardly relevant. Now, lets look at some facts. I noticed you live in the Alaska. It must be beautiful up there. I'm a little jealous. :] I probably don't have to tell you alcohol causes quite a lot of problems up there. It's evident in the amount of dry villages. In fact, it's causing more problems up there than any other illegal drug. Here's some links backing me up. The following link is about alcohol and alaska. Honestly, this surprised me. Alcohol more profitable than cocaine?
    http://www.law.state.ak.us/pdf/admin...ion-071306.pdf
    This next link is about alcohol and the US as a whole. 40% of all violent crimes? Wow.
    Crime and Alcohol
    Have I said that heavy marijuana use contributes significantly to violent crime. No. I have correctly pointed out that it contributes to human parasitism and a diminished mental capacity in the population so self-afflicted, and that mental deficiency is inimical to a republican form of government. (if is however, vital and indispensable to the Modern Left for such period and the trappings of a republican form of government endure.)
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  8. #68
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Last I checked, at least half of the states have passed some form of decriminalization on the possession of marijuana. That is the issue correct? Certainly a wide selection of states for people to move if it is that important to them.
    Are you referring to the states of Portugal?

    In Lisbon you can possess any small amount of drug. You call it marijuana but its real name is cannabis -- cannabis is decriminalized in all the states. In the capital no one will do anything if you are smoking a joint in the streets. Of course, there is cultural politeness, so people will have discretion, but from a legal standpoint they can't be tossed in jail and have their lives ruined over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Who is treating addicts like monsters?
    Any system that criminalizes small possession is not only completely inefficient, it is also ethically vile. In many U.S. states, small possession of opiates or heroin is a felony charge. That's just ridiculous.

    The reason why it treats addicts like monsters is because it's addicts who are in the most risky position to get caught. They have medical need of the substance so will play russian roulette with the law more readily. Combined with this, the medical system stigmatizes addicts because simply admitting you are high to most medical personnel will get you the third degree. De-couple the law from the medicine, and harm reduction will increase greatly. Then there will be less outbursts, violence, self-hurt, cries for help, etc.

    As it stands, only the affluent get this kind of "fair" treatment, or better The people of privilege who do drugs in this country, like the people in white collar professions, politicians, or simply the wealthy, get
    off scott free. So not only is the system inefficient, it's partial.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    However, some drugs do have a history of making people violent.
    Another ambiguous statement. Sorry to give you the third degree, but you really need to be more specific. Every drug has a different socio-politico-economic profile.

    Alcohol causes the most violence and property damage per capita. It's also addictive. Can you explain that one to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I have nothing but pity for addicts for because of their addiction they are not a free person. I've watched them destroy their health, lose their wealth, and create a living hell for their families and loved ones. Because of what I've observed personally no doubt has a role in why I am strongly against the legalization.
    I don't understand the logical disconnect here. You admit all that, yet still favor punishment? How can you punish someone who is harming themselves? It's pretty much the opposite of what they need.

    You acknowledge all that, yet won't acknowledge criminalizing them is just adding one more bain to their existence. There is no evidence that law-enforced recovery is lasting. If the addict doesn't choose their recovery then their success profile is low. They will have access to their drug of choice regardless if it's legal or not, because blackmarket saturation is high in many parts of North America.

    So, to summarize:
    1) We can't keep drugs out.
    2) We can't keep people from doing them.
    3) Law enforcement is not increasing long-term recovery rates.
    4) Drug enforcement as it looks now is an economic drain, and causes many opportunity costs for those processed in the system.
    5) It's not impartially enforced. People of privilege and affluence not only do the drugs, they are often the source of their entry into this country.
    6) The drug economy exists in the billions of dollars as an underground system, controlled by gangs who are violent savages, resulting in even more social problems.

    The list goes on.

    Reagan tried. He had a pipe dream (no pun intended) about what drugs were doing to this country. IMO it was just another pet cause to shore up votes, but it was also a government power grab. He thought he could stop it, however well intended or deluded that was. But it didn't work.

    What we need to do now is cut through the brainwashing of the past several decades, which is what cannabis law has started to do.

    People who are in favor of drug laws really need to examine the HISTORY of the drug in question, and the government's role in oppressing it.
    Last edited by Northern Light; 08-26-13 at 01:04 AM.

  9. #69
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    That is one of the most foolish arguments out there. It's like the people who imagine that the Mexican drug cartels will become law abiding citizens if recreational narcotics are legalized.

    Such people are professional criminals first and foremost, and will always seek illicit activities.
    So is that the game? Lose one argument, transform it into an entirely different argument?
    I simply don't care what pot dealers might do once it is legalized.
    The one thing they wont be doing is selling pot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Then I recommend that you provide your progeny with a good example of mature thinking. Children can be of any age, I have found. It is terribly sad to find them in adult bodies.
    As you play the "your a child, I'm more mature than you" game, do you not feel that you are a perfect example of the adult-child you just described?
    Are you seriously saying that your passive aggressive little insults are "mature thinking"? Think again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I have also been one in a major urban setting, as well as the Air Force. My experience is rather extensive. Embracing it is one of the several aspects of my nature that gives rise to a superior intellect, and the production of more valuable and valid insights.
    And you say you don't do drugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    And some of the most produictive people I've known and in the historical record have been profound alcoholics. Your point?
    Finally something I can agree with. Even though alcohol is a hardcore and deadly substance, there are still people that have managed to be productive.
    Marijuana simply helps a person relax after a hard days work and has little to no effect on their productiveness. Some use it to help do tedious tasks. Others use it to generate high levels of focus. And some simply use it to curb anxiety. In any event, there are people with extremely high and extremely low levels of productivity that smoke marijuana quite heavily. All walks of life.

    You asked what "my" point is? My only point is to counter your initial point which was that frequent marijuana smokers are lazy drains on society.
    A statement which was completely and utterly ridiculous.

  10. #70
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post

    My experience is rather extensive. Embracing it is one of the several aspects of my nature that gives rise to a superior intellect, and the production of more valuable and valid insights.

    Don't forget to mention how humble and unpretentious you are, too.
    LMFAO...Superior intellect...more valuable and valid insights...Too funny...

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