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Thread: War on drugs.

  1. #51
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Are you suggesting that personal experiences can't be factual?
    No, I wanted to point out that personal experiences typically aren't a good representation of all people. Consider the population of the US and then consider how many people you know in those situations. I've had personal experiences with alcoholics. I think I can say I've seen the worst of the worst in alcoholism. People who were once contributing members of society rendered unable to function. I've also seen many potheads unaffected by pot in how successful they are, how well they function. Regardless, our personal experiences are hardly relevant. Now, lets look at some facts. I noticed you live in the Alaska. It must be beautiful up there. I'm a little jealous. :] I probably don't have to tell you alcohol causes quite a lot of problems up there. It's evident in the amount of dry villages. In fact, it's causing more problems up there than any other illegal drug. Here's some links backing me up. The following link is about alcohol and alaska. Honestly, this surprised me. Alcohol more profitable than cocaine?
    http://www.law.state.ak.us/pdf/admin...ion-071306.pdf
    This next link is about alcohol and the US as a whole. 40% of all violent crimes? Wow.
    Crime and Alcohol
    Last edited by sbrettt; 08-25-13 at 02:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Should I be free to buy anthrax and a rocket launcher?
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    Is there a reason you shouldnt be free to?
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    Obamacare wants to put a chip inside people. There is a video of it on youtube.

  2. #52
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Here's another Google search showing arrests being made all over the country for making moonshine.
    https://www.google.com/search?source...alive+and+well

    I believe that is enough proof to show even though you can buy white lightening now at the State Store, folks are still making their own and getting arrested for it.

  3. #53
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    Re: War on drugs.

    That still isn't home-grown tobacco. That's still retail branded product. I was addressing your argument that people would still buy home-grown. Even when the taxes are that high, people still won't buy unbranded tobacco. What you are proving is only that state taxes are dangerously high in some markets, not that people would rather buy illictly produced tobacco. They would end up having to pay more for it than for the legitimate retail tobacco.

    Though I do agree that those states should address the problems with their tax code. That much I'll definitely agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    There were too many links associated with illegal moonshine so here is the link to the Google search, there you can take your pick. there you will find links reporting government still shutting down illegal stills and making arrests.
    https://www.google.com/search?source...alive+and+well
    Did you read any of the links?

    Virginia law says you must have a license to operate a distillery. However, the number of illegal still investigations and seizures in Virginia is on the rise - from eight in 2008 to 23 in 2012.

    [ . . . ]

    Those who secretly make moonshine say it should be legal to fill up a Mason jar for the family. They say it's just about Uncle Sam wanting his fair share in taxes.
    Moonshine: Laws, Liquor and Lawmen - NBC29 WVIR Charlottesville, VA News, Sports and Weather

    23 busts for mason jar moonshine, and you call that enough to signify a meangingful black market?

    Moonshine is Alive and Well in Marshall County | WKMS

    Story about legal, licensed and taxed moonshine.

    Moonshiners Alive and Well In This Area |

    Local authorities said cases involving moonshine stills have become increasingly rare over the past decade.

    According to Scott County Commonwealth�s Attorney Marcus McClung, the working still confiscated Tuesday�s was only the second one that has been found by authorities during his three terms in office.
    Moonshining alive and well at Institution

    Moonshine production in a prison.

    Gadsden Times - Google News Archive Search

    Article from 1990.

    There isn't a meaningful market for illegal moonshine. There hasn't been since alcohol was legalized. The proliferation of murderous gangs and crime surrounding black-market alcohol disappeared as soon as it was legalized again. If we were to outlaw it again, to somehow strike out at the very few illegal producers there are, all that would do is replace every existing, regulated, taxed, inspected liquor store with a new gang dealing black-market moonshine.

    If we legalized marijuana you could expect the same. Some home-grown personal use stuff, a small black market for illegally produced reefer, but mostly all of it being incorporated into the white-market economy, freeing up law enforcement and prison cells for more serious crimes, raising tax revenue, employing honest Americans, and keeping the money in the US economy.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

  4. #54
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    That still isn't home-grown tobacco. That's still retail branded product. I was addressing your argument that people would still buy home-grown. Even when the taxes are that high, people still won't buy unbranded tobacco. What you are proving is only that state taxes are dangerously high in some markets, not that people would rather buy illictly produced tobacco. They would end up having to pay more for it than for the legitimate retail tobacco.

    Though I do agree that those states should address the problems with their tax code. That much I'll definitely agree with.



    Did you read any of the links?



    Moonshine: Laws, Liquor and Lawmen - NBC29 WVIR Charlottesville, VA News, Sports and Weather

    23 busts for mason jar moonshine, and you call that enough to signify a meangingful black market?

    Moonshine is Alive and Well in Marshall County | WKMS

    Story about legal, licensed and taxed moonshine.

    Moonshiners Alive and Well In This Area |



    Moonshining alive and well at Institution

    Moonshine production in a prison.

    Gadsden Times - Google News Archive Search

    Article from 1990.

    There isn't a meaningful market for illegal moonshine. There hasn't been since alcohol was legalized. The proliferation of murderous gangs and crime surrounding black-market alcohol disappeared as soon as it was legalized again. If we were to outlaw it again, to somehow strike out at the very few illegal producers there are, all that would do is replace every existing, regulated, taxed, inspected liquor store with a new gang dealing black-market moonshine.

    If we legalized marijuana you could expect the same. Some home-grown personal use stuff, a small black market for illegally produced reefer, but mostly all of it being incorporated into the white-market economy, freeing up law enforcement and prison cells for more serious crimes, raising tax revenue, employing honest Americans, and keeping the money in the US economy.
    I never said Black Market in Cigarettes involved growing your own tobacco. You assumed that on your own. The purpose in using cigarettes as an example is to show even though a substance is made legal and it collects a lot of taxes it still has the real potential to increase criminal activity. If the black market for cigarettes exists, only an idiot would deny the real potential for a black market on marijuana or any drug.

    People all across this country are getting arrested for making moonshine. My first link did have some examples as proof the practice still exists. Unfortunately I posted the first link twice.

    Here is a link proving folks all over are getting arrested for moonshine stills operations.

    https://www.google.com/search?source...onshine+stills

    The government federal and state don't take kindly of someone taking upon themselves to produce and sell a product that they rely on for much revenue. And only an idiot would think that growing your own marijuana, poppies whatever to produce your own stash would be permitted...... one French fry short a whole Happy Meal.
    Last edited by vesper; 08-25-13 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Child, calm yourself lest in your over emotive state you do yourself an injury.
    I have grandchildren.
    But I am glad to know that you've reached a point where you have nothing intelligent to say and have begun to base your argument on nothing more than petty insults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    First, there is no hospital here. There is none for hundreds of miles, and no road to reach one anyway.
    Oh I see, so you are an EMT in the wilderness without roads. I can clearly see that your experience in such matters must be vast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Second, you assume that people who get their bills paid by others don't brag about it and then whine publicly and frequently that they should receive more of the fruits of other people's labors. The nature of life in a small remote village is most instructive.

    Third, heavy pot smokers are heavy pot smokers largely because they are lazy. Building a real life with real accomplishments and producing actual value to one's fellows is a bother that can be washed a way in resinous smoke. Unless you like so many Leftists believe that things occur for no reason?
    That is just ridiculous speculation based from ignorance and your extremely limited experiences and ideas. Some of the most productive people I have known smoke pot, as well as some of the least.

  6. #56
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Did it ever cross your mind how profitable it would be to the federal government and big business to decriminalize all drugs while addicting them to the substances knowing that they would certainly be return customers?
    Not half as profitable in terms of either money or power as the war on drugs has become.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    As always, it is fascinating to observe the leftist capacity to dismiss the experiences of others.

    I'm not concerned with addiction rates, nor withdrawal issues just now. I'm concerned with the notion or thoughtless concept that people whom we're expected to support and nurture at the expense of the Productive should be given further license to exist by choice as mentally defective parasites.
    Where do you get this kind of stuff from?
    You seem to have this false impression that people that prefer marijuana over alcohol are lazy or unproductive.
    This notion is totally absurd and you have been watching too much television.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    You might also consider the nature of those who sell legally or illegally chemical happiness, and their glorious contributions to society and the employment of dieners.
    Right, and that is one of the strongest arguments for legalization.
    The drug dealers are indeed leaches in society. People who do not pay taxes, yet use capitalism to charge as much as the market will allow.
    Legalization ends this problem.

  8. #58
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Care to post any links to your claims? I'm finding a mixed bag including what NPR reported a year and a half ago. Certainly not a bastion of right winged agenda.
    Not really. The harm reduction model is still the most practical and fair. Punishing people for drug use makes no sense. Anyone should have the sovereign right to alter their consciousnes - just like they do with coffee and alcohol - without suffering punishment by the state.

    Instead of me proving to you that the HR model is effective, I would ask you to prove to me how locking people away for simple possession and treating addicts like monsters is beneficial to society? What good as Reagan's war on drugs done for this country?

    [/quote]

    This NPR article fails to account for the decline in the economy, leading to major unemployment, which leads to more drug use.

  9. #59
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I never said Black Market in Cigarettes involved growing your own tobacco. You assumed that on your own. The purpose in using cigarettes as an example is to show even though a substance is made legal and it collects a lot of taxes it still has the real potential to increase criminal activity.
    Yes, small amounts, but not anywhere near as much as there is in a market that exists entirely as a criminal enterprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    People all across this country are getting arrested for making moonshine. My first link did have some examples as proof the practice still exists. [/URL]
    Not in any way even remotely as bad as it did during prohibition. Yes, there are still minor operations squeeking by, but it's not a vast and deadly gangland economy like it was during prohibition. You seem to be saying if we can't get rid of illegal markets 100%, then we should have a 100% illegal market. That doesn't make any sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The government federal and state don't take kindly of someone taking upon themselves to produce and sell a product that they rely on for much revenue. And only an idiot would think that growing your own marijuana, poppies whatever to produce your own stash would be permitted...... one French fry short a whole Happy Meal.
    I don't think it would be permitted, I think that it would happen, and it would be negligible. That's what I said. Also, it still may well be permitted. After all, you're still allowed to brew your own beer and press your own wine. I knew a guy once, terrible hopeless alcoholic, who only drank honey-meade he made himself because it was about $6 for like 5 or 6 gallons of it. Perfectly legal.

    The point is, the black market for reefer would be reduced to negligible levels as soon as legalization happened. That there would still be small time operations doesn't in any way negate the value of elimitaing what would probable be over 99% of the black market. That's on top of the other benefits.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

  10. #60
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Not really. The harm reduction model is still the most practical and fair. Punishing people for drug use makes no sense. Anyone should have the sovereign right to alter their consciousnes - just like they do with coffee and alcohol - without suffering punishment by the state.

    Instead of me proving to you that the HR model is effective, I would ask you to prove to me how locking people away for simple possession and treating addicts like monsters is beneficial to society? What good as Reagan's war on drugs done for this country?
    This NPR article fails to account for the decline in the economy, leading to major unemployment, which leads to more drug use.[/

    Last I checked, at least half of the states have passed some form of decriminalization on the possession of marijuana. That is the issue correct? Certainly a wide selection of states for people to move if it is that important to them. Who is treating addicts like monsters? Not me. However, some drugs do have a history of making people violent. I have nothing but pity for addicts for because of their addiction they are not a free person. I've watched them destroy their health, lose their wealth, and create a living hell for their families and loved ones. Because of what I've observed personally no doubt has a role in why I am strongly against the legalization.

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