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Thread: War on drugs.

  1. #41
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Cigarettes are not a mind altering drug but having said that......
    Then I can assume you have no problem with the federal government if ever it should be legalized to tax and tax and tax again the substance just like it does cigarettes and alcohol making it very expensive to purchase. Do I have that right?
    No, what you are talking about is a "punishment tax," at least in regards to cigarettes. That is because cigarettes are a proven carcinogen and the government is trying to prevent their use. Marijuana, on the other hand, does exactly the opposite...it helps with cancer treatment among other things. There is no need for a "punishment tax" on it, just normal taxes with a bump for drug treatment and education programs. It would still remain cheaper than steet dealing once legalized. Hell, people could grow it themselves if nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And that you do realize the whole legalization of the drug is not going to stop any black market of the drug because once the federal government and let us not forget state governments taxation on top will eventually make it more advantageous for those who seek the weed to look to black market sources because they would always offer it for a much lower rate than the pushers in the federal government. Correct?
    Again, incorrect. Due to illegality all drugs are highly expensive in relationship to their availability. When you legalize any drug, especially a drug like Marijuana which can be home-grown, the price would drop drastically. Sold in packages even with taxes it would be cheaper than going to a current street dealer.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    So stopping illegal drugs into this country will not stop because there will still be a market for them. Correct?
    Again incorrect, because legalization of drugs will change the market dynamic. They will become like any other product. If it can be made in the USA it will be. If it needs to be imported it will be. In either case, the price will be based on normal supply and demand. This undercuts black market profits because legal things can be sold cheaply and openly.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And I assume the same leftist groups that have gone after cigarette smoking for its adverse affects on health and the health of others, that you are willing to see that the same laws be applied to marijuana smokers in public places as those being applied to cigarette smokers? Yes?
    Perhaps. After all a person's right to get "high" does not include giving people who DON'T want to get high a contact high. As with cigarettes, I'm sure there will be designated smoking areas with filtration systems, or open air locations clearly marked and away from general traffic, etc. Big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Because data proves that marijuana smokers share the same pulmonary problems as cigarette smokers. Correct?
    I don't think this is correct but would be willing to examine this data you speak of. Cite please?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Which means under Obamacare the doobie smoker is going to face the same discrimination as the smoker. Correct?
    What are you talking about? You seem to be grasping at straws in this "logical chain of supposed ills" argument you are trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And the second hand smoke is just as lethal as that from a doobie. Correct?
    Actually, I believe this is incorrect too. From what I gather marijuana smoke does not have the same deliterious effects as cigarette smoke. Aside from the possibility of giving someone who inhales enough a contact high.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Which means regarding to your geographic location it would be against the law to smoke a doobie in the car with children. Correct?
    No, but who would smoke in the car with their children? Maybe the same a-hole parents who would smoke cigarettes in a car with their kids. But unlike cigarettes, I'd think most marijuana smokers who had kids would avoid doing it where the kids could get a contact high since they know it occurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    In some towns where they have outlawed smoking in apartment buildings, you realize that smoking a doobie would fall under the same rules... correct?
    So what? Like anyone else find a place where smoking is allowed and rent there. Again, you are really going off the deep end with this trail of supposed ills.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And those who ban smoking 20 feet from any building would include someone smoking a doobie or pipe. Correct? And those who have children who smoke cigarettes around their children in their own homes being accused of child abuse, you do realize smoking doobies/pipes applies equally. Correct?
    Let the accusations fly, big deal.

    Nothing you've stated has any merit in an arguement against legalization of marijuana. I don't know why you think it does. Are you that unaware of this particular drug and it's effects?
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 08-25-13 at 05:21 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #42
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    OK this is also ridiculous on so many levels.
    In what way are you qualified to make such a statement?
    I thought you were an EMT?

    First of all, an EMT does not have access to a patient's financial records.
    Second, it would require a really involved study with a large study group of many patient's financial records to even begin to have that type of knowledge.
    Third, if you do have this type of information as an EMT, your hospital needs to be taken to court.
    Fourth, it just does not make any logical sense.

    And what does any of this have to do with your original statement that heavy pot smokers are lazy or don't come to work or whatever it was you said?

    Child, calm yourself lest in your over emotive state you do yourself an injury.

    First, there is no hospital here. There is none for hundreds of miles, and no road to reach one anyway.

    Second, you assume that people who get their bills paid by others don't brag about it and then whine publicly and frequently that they should receive more of the fruits of other people's labors. The nature of life in a small remote village is most instructive.

    Third, heavy pot smokers are heavy pot smokers largely because they are lazy. Building a real life with real accomplishments and producing actual value to one's fellows is a bother that can be washed a way in resinous smoke. Unless you like so many Leftists believe that things occur for no reason?
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  3. #43
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    Ok there are several problems with this statement.
    1- Almost all of these "messes" are a result of alcohol.
    2- Nobody is saying to you that it should be fine for casual marijuana smokers to operate a vehicle.
    3- The impairment level for any type of marijuana or any type of marijuana smoker is trivial in comparison to only a small amount of alcohol.

    The problem is that someone comes in and you blood test them and find marijuana, and you reach to make a connection between the reason for their admittance and the marijuana in their system.
    To make the problem worse, it stays in their system for weeks after usage but only impairs the casual user for a couple of hours. The result of this is that an accurate judgement is scientifically impossible. Yet you and those that you listen to try to anyhow.

    The fact of the matter is, if you tested every person for broccoli consumption over their last 3 weeks, your test group would score about the same.
    Yet broccoli would also not be the reason for their admittance.
    Just because a person gets hurt or even wrecks a car and has pot in their system, it does not mean the 2 events are connected.
    Unlike alcohol where people become completely impaired.


    This is totally false.
    The marijuana addiction rate is no where close to coffee and not even a fraction as severe as cigarettes.
    It can be slightly addictive though, and about 9% of users experience this problem.
    But if anyone needs an actual rehab to stop, the problem is not the marijuana. The problem is that they need to get away from the people that surround them.
    There are not significant "issues" from the withdrawal process. Even the Anti-Marijuana papers that are mostly BS will admit to this.
    Irritability, constipation, and anxiety for a week or so.
    As always, it is fascinating to observe the leftist capacity to dismiss the experiences of others.

    I'm not concerned with addiction rates, nor withdrawal issues just now. I'm concerned with the notion or thoughtless concept that people whom we're expected to support and nurture at the expense of the Productive should be given further license to exist by choice as mentally defective parasites.

    You might also consider the nature of those who sell legally or illegally chemical happiness, and their glorious contributions to society and the employment of dieners.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  4. #44
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Nothing you've stated has any merit in an arguement against legalization of marijuana. I don't know why you think it does. Are you that unaware of this particular drug and it's effects?
    When it comes to you nothing I state regardless of topic has merit but that certainly doesn't make it so.
    Last edited by vesper; 08-25-13 at 10:24 AM.

  5. #45
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Then I can assume you have no problem with the federal government if ever it should be legalized to tax and tax and tax again the substance just like it does cigarettes and alcohol
    Taxation would be one of the many benefits of legalization. It costs about 6 cents to produce a cigarette, and marijuana is a more robust plant, so I think we can assume similar production costs for industrial marijuana. But people currently pay 10 to 15 dollars for a cigarette's worth of weed. The room for taxation is enormous. Plus, it would bring production into the United States, so American farmers could get the profit for the raw material rather than South America drug lords; and this may be enough extra profit to end, or at least reduce, farm subsidies. Third, all the money that law enforcement currently spends fighting marijuana could be put to more meaningful use; such as treatment for narcotics addicts or even toward law enforcement against more serious drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    tax and tax and tax again the substance just like it does cigarettes and alcohol making it very expensive to purchase. Do I have that right? And that you do realize the whole legalization of the drug is not going to stop any black market of the drug because once the federal government and let us not forget state governments taxation on top will eventually make it more advantageous for those who seek the weed to look to black market sources because they would always offer it for a much lower rate than the pushers in the federal government.
    Nonsense. Is Bugzy Malone's gang still running moonshine? No, as soon as alcohol became legal, the alcohol gangs disappeared. No one would continue to pay 12$ for a cigarette when they could get a 1 ounce pack for fifty bucks. The drug gangs couldn't compete with industrial farms using legitimate shipping channels to existing retail infrastructure, and no one would buy unbranded pot of unknown quality and origin over a good brand name who's flavor and quality they know. I'm sure there would be a lot of homegrown homeuse, but there would be no market imperative for continued black-market supply of mary jane that couldn't be produced at the same low-cost as wholesale industrial production.

    Look at Amsterdam. No one buys black market weed there. They can go to a coffee shop and buy a variety of name brand, high quality stuff for far less than it costs to smuggle illegal crap into the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    So stopping illegal drugs into this country will not stop because there will still be a market for them. Correct?
    No. There's nothing to suggest that would be the case. History, current and past, shows that the black market gangs disappear as soon as there's a white market choice. Do you buy your whisky from shady dealers getting it out of home made stills? Of course not. Because you don't have to. Same with pot smokers in Holland.

    So why would it be any different? Why would people still choose the more expensive black market product of unreliable quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And I assume the same leftist groups that have gone after cigarette smoking for its adverse affects on health and the health of others, that you are willing to see that the same laws be applied to marijuana smokers in public places as those being applied to cigarette smokers? Yes? Because data proves that marijuana smokers share the same pulmonary problems as cigarette smokers. Correct? Which means under Obamacare the doobie smoker is going to face the same discrimination as the smoker. Correct? And the second hand smoke is just as lethal as that from a doobie. Correct? Which means regarding to your geographic location it would be against the law to smoke a doobie in the car with children. Correct? In some towns where they have outlawed smoking in apartment buildings, you realize that smoking a doobie would fall under the same rules... correct? And those who ban smoking 20 feet from any building would include someone smoking a doobie or pipe. Correct? And those who have children who smoke cigarettes around their children in their own homes being accused of child abuse, you do realize smoking doobies/pipes applies equally. Correct?
    I'm sure. I would expect laws regulating where marijuana can be smoked. Just like you can't drink and drive, or drink in public, I would expect the same laws for reefer.


    There's no rational reason to expect any of what you fear. It would keep the money in the US economy instead of sending it out of country, it would employ Americans instead of Mexican drug mules, it would provide a tax revenue base that could be used for fighting more serious crime, it would employ more American farmers, truckers, and retailers, and it would effectively end the black-market drug trade for marijuana.

    So why is that a bad idea?
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

  6. #46
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Taxation would be one of the many benefits of legalization. It costs about 6 cents to produce a cigarette, and marijuana is a more robust plant, so I think we can assume similar production costs for industrial marijuana. But people currently pay 10 to 15 dollars for a cigarette's worth of weed. The room for taxation is enormous. Plus, it would bring production into the United States, so American farmers could get the profit for the raw material rather than South America drug lords; and this may be enough extra profit to end, or at least reduce, farm subsidies. Third, all the money that law enforcement currently spends fighting marijuana could be put to more meaningful use; such as treatment for narcotics addicts or even toward law enforcement against more serious drugs.



    Nonsense. Is Bugzy Malone's gang still running moonshine? No, as soon as alcohol became legal, the alcohol gangs disappeared. No one would continue to pay 12$ for a cigarette when they could get a 1 ounce pack for fifty bucks. The drug gangs couldn't compete with industrial farms using legitimate shipping channels to existing retail infrastructure, and no one would buy unbranded pot of unknown quality and origin over a good brand name who's flavor and quality they know. I'm sure there would be a lot of homegrown homeuse, but there would be no market imperative for continued black-market supply of mary jane that couldn't be produced at the same low-cost as wholesale industrial production.

    Look at Amsterdam. No one buys black market weed there. They can go to a coffee shop and buy a variety of name brand, high quality stuff for far less than it costs to smuggle illegal crap into the country.



    No. There's nothing to suggest that would be the case. History, current and past, shows that the black market gangs disappear as soon as there's a white market choice. Do you buy your whisky from shady dealers getting it out of home made stills? Of course not. Because you don't have to. Same with pot smokers in Holland.

    So why would it be any different? Why would people still choose the more expensive black market product of unreliable quality?



    I'm sure. I would expect laws regulating where marijuana can be smoked. Just like you can't drink and drive, or drink in public, I would expect the same laws for reefer.


    There's no rational reason to expect any of what you fear. It would keep the money in the US economy instead of sending it out of country, it would employ Americans instead of Mexican drug mules, it would provide a tax revenue base that could be used for fighting more serious crime, it would employ more American farmers, truckers, and retailers, and it would effectively end the black-market drug trade for marijuana.

    So why is that a bad idea?
    The government will never allow people to grow their own marijuana because it would be too big a loss in revenue.
    The black market is alive and well in the cigarette industry a legal substance.
    People are still making illegal moonshine and there is a real market for it.
    People will still grow marijuana illegally and sell it on the street at a lower price then what the government regulates.

  7. #47
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The government will never allow people to grow their own marijuana because it would be too big a loss in revenue.
    The black market is alive and well in the cigarette industry a legal substance.
    People are still making illegal moonshine and there is a real market for it.
    People will still grow marijuana illegally and sell it on the street at a lower price then what the government regulates.
    Really?

    state of Oregon medical marijuana limits, marijuana Portland, Dr Camacho

    Drug policy of Colorado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    http://medmj-wa.com/grow.html

    http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/mmp/Pages/default.aspx
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 08-25-13 at 12:48 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #48
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The black market is alive and well in the cigarette industry a legal substance.
    People are still making illegal moonshine and there is a real market for it.
    Do you have any evidence of a meaningful market in either moonshine or home-grown tobacco?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    People will still grow marijuana illegally and sell it on the street at a lower price then what the government regulates.
    They can't currently grow and sell it for lower than what could be done legally, so why do you think that will change? It currently costs about $12 retail for what could be sent to market for 6 cents plus tax. Where is it that you think this cost reduction for black market supply will happen?
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

  9. #49
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    Re: War on drugs.

    I was speaking in the terms of federal government. For that is the goal of those who wish to have medical marijuana reclassified. Once they do that opens the door for the feds to regulate it.

    I'm not surprised to read about Portland. That city has real problems with drug use. In 2006 the increase in heroine rose 600%. The problem with drug rehabilitation has cost the people in Oregon a real chunk of change.

    Portland, Oregon Substance Abuse Treatment | Drug Abuse Treatment in Portland, OR
    Last edited by vesper; 08-25-13 at 01:12 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: War on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Do you have any evidence of a meaningful market in either moonshine or home-grown tobacco?



    They can't currently grow and sell it for lower than what could be done legally, so why do you think that will change? It currently costs about $12 retail for what could be sent to market for 6 cents plus tax. Where is it that you think this cost reduction for black market supply will happen?
    Trade In Black-Market Cigarettes: Hot, Dangerous : NPR


    There were too many links associated with illegal moonshine so here is the link to the Google search, there you can take your pick. there you will find links reporting government still shutting down illegal stills and making arrests.
    https://www.google.com/search?source...alive+and+well
    Last edited by vesper; 08-25-13 at 02:03 PM.

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