View Poll Results: What is the reason that we see less and less Traditional Family Structure?

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Thread: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

  1. #81
    The Bodhisattva

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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    Doughgirl
    I just.. dont.. know....... but I do know this. I thank God in heaven that my kids are the ages that they are, 22 and 25. I would hate to have very young children and be raising them in todays society.
    That would be us. Almost 2 and 3 1/2. Both girls. I see todays youth and the respect, or lack of, daily.

    It is not as bad as it seems yet it is still a fright. Parents today do not seem to instill respect or tradition into their kids...it sucks.

    This, wlong with other factors, is one of the prime reasons we are moving to overseas this summer. Not a hate of the USA or any political reason...it is social and environmental (our one daughters health). Anyway, America is hurting and it is only getting fatter and more pathetic.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Kids are in school all day from toddlerhood.
    Not necessarily. I'd hardly call a five year old a toddler. You're assuming that the child will attend preschool; this is not always the case, and even when it is, most preschools do not operate on an all day schedule, nor do children always attend 5 days a week.

    The last thing they need is some stay-at-home parent hanging over them constantly like a big dead goose, making their lives miserable.
    Oh yes, because us stay at home parents are just so intent on making our kids' lives miserable. Funny, I rather thought we stayed home to make our kids' lives the best possible.

    Are you implying that stay at home parents don't allow their children much independence? In my observations and experiences, you couldn't be further from the truth.

    I'm a proud working parent, and I think working parents set a positive example for their kids.
    And no one is arguing that point. But families where one parent stays home are also setting a positive example for their kids. They're showing that one parent cares enough about their well being and development to be there for them whenever needed...and the parent that works is showing that they care enough to provide a life that makes it possible for the other parent to be there when they cannot.

    I've got no problem with SAHMs; everybody's free to do whatever they feel like, as long as it's logistically feasible.
    But when they start judging me, there's a problem.
    Well, as has been demonstrated in other threads, and in this very post, you DO seem to have a problem with SAHMs. And you do quite a bit of judging of us. Do as I say, not as I do?

    I love to work, which is fortunate, because I have to work, as do most parents.
    That's great for you. But more and more families are finding it possible to allow one parent to stay at home, while still providing enough income to pay the bills.


    My kids have learned by example that there's no reason for adults not to work, unless they are invalids and can't work. Being a parent is no reason not to work; in fact, it's a reason to work even harder.
    Au contraire. There's a very big reason for a two parent household to have one parent not work: Their kids are a higher priority to them than providing countless luxuries. You imply that stay at home parents don't work; quite contrarily, we bust our butts to provide a loving environment for our families. We run our households with the efficiency of a CEO. Stay at home parents work just as hard, if not harder, than many folks out in the paying workforce. We work to produce good, smart, and productive members of tomorrow's world.

    People need external structure to their lives in order to be happy and productive. Work provides that like nothing else I know of.
    Not really. My life is plenty structured, and I'm perfectly happy and rather productive. It depends upon individual personality, goals, and desires. You say you enjoy work, so obviously you find a level of structure, happiness, and productivity in your work. So do I....only, my work is not done for anyone other than my family.

    I would not wish the life of a stay-at-home parent on anyone, although if some stay-at-home parents are happy with their situations, then I'm happy for them.
    If we're happy with our situation, then why wouldn't you wish our life on anyone? Just because staying home isn't suited to your personality, it's not some horrible life of imprisonment for the rest of us, which is what you seem to think.
    Last edited by Stace; 02-28-07 at 08:51 PM.

  3. #83
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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    More than 82% of women in the US are mothers; 72% of all mothers of minor children are in the labor force.*
    Among college-educated women with infant children, 63% are currently in the labor force.*
    Like I said in a previous post on this thread, it's not like anybody outside of weird, radical evangelical cults honestly believes that either children or society in general would benefit, either individually or collectively, if women were to retreat en masse from the public and private sector and return to being housewives.
    When one finds oneself having to rely upon the likes of Doughgirl and DeeJayH to justify or validate one's position on the matter, I would think that any rational and intelligent human being would be forced to reevaluate the validity of that position.
    There is no evidence that children fare better simply because their mothers are unemployed.
    In fact, all evidence I've seen points to the contrary.
    And society, quite simply, can't do without women in the workforce.



    *source: United States Census Bureau

  4. #84
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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by BodiSatva View Post
    That would be us. Almost 2 and 3 1/2. Both girls. I see todays youth and the respect, or lack of, daily.

    It is not as bad as it seems yet it is still a fright. Parents today do not seem to instill respect or tradition into their kids...it sucks.

    This, wlong with other factors, is one of the prime reasons we are moving to overseas this summer. Not a hate of the USA or any political reason...it is social and environmental (our one daughters health). Anyway, America is hurting and it is only getting fatter and more pathetic.
    You're leaving the country?! Geez...see ya later
    Emphasis added.

    "The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next."
    ~Emerson

  5. #85
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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    More than 82% of women in the US are mothers; 72% of all mothers of minor children are in the labor force.*
    Among college-educated women with infant children, 63% are currently in the labor force.*
    Like I said in a previous post on this thread, it's not like anybody outside of weird, radical evangelical cults honestly believes that either children or society in general would benefit, either individually or collectively, if women were to retreat en masse from the public and private sector and return to being housewives.
    When one finds oneself having to rely upon the likes of Doughgirl and DeeJayH to justify or validate one's position on the matter, I would think that any rational and intelligent human being would be forced to reevaluate the validity of that position.
    There is no evidence that children fare better simply because their mothers are unemployed.
    In fact, all evidence I've seen points to the contrary.
    And society, quite simply, can't do without women in the workforce.



    *source: United States Census Bureau
    And yet, one has to wonder what those numbers will say in a couple of years when a new census is done? I know quite a few mothers, and a good majority of them stay home with their kids. None of us are part of "weird, radical evangelical cults", but we all certainly feel that we're doing the best we can for our kids by staying home. Motherhood is moving up in the ranks of womens' priorities, and more and more mothers are adopting attachment parenting philosophies, up to and including staying home with their children.

    There's plenty of stuff out there that says children do better when a parent stays home with them...and as a side note, staying home does not automatically mean unemployed. Anyway, there's plenty of stuff out there that'll tell you sticking your kid in daycare is the way to go. If you look hard enough, you can find something to support any side of any issue. But the point remains that stay at home moms are doing what is best for THEIR family, just like working mothers are doing what works best for THEIR family. Why can't you just concede that point? Just because you don't agree with the stay at home lifestyle, why do you continue to villify stay at home mothers and attempt to make us feel worthless and like we're doing something wrong? That attitude isn't helping anyone, and just makes you look bitter, and, well...mean.

    Also....allow me to put on my mod hat for a moment.

    As for your comment about doughgirl and DeeJayH....very thin line you're treading; I'd advise you to back off from that line of posting.

  6. #86
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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    Well, my wife is working as a research administrator while working on her P.H.D.

    I own a small business.

    We have a 25year old who has a degree in psychology and is currently working on on an accounting degree. We also have a 6 year old who is the apple of everybody's eye.

    Both children are well adgusted, the first following a much less wild path in my life than did I at the same age. My own parents are very traditional and conservative, yet I ended up dropping out of school to pursue my interests in drug taking, hitchhiking and communal living. Now,certainly I am offering nothing but anecdotal accounts here, but if one approaches child rearing based upon what is best for the child, I am not convinced that mothers staying home is really the key to raising kids successfully.

    In our case, we do a lot of juggling of time, and with both boys, our pattern involved my taking the kids to work with me on occasion, my wife bringing work and school home with her quite a bit, and with the boys in day care less than full time. It's not as if we just parked the kids in a holding pen, as we chose the situations very carefully, limited the number of hours to what was necessary, and stayed very involved. Now,not every family has the luxury of engaging in the sort of juggling as we did, since we are in control of our time more than some people, but it still worked for us and worked well. Heck, with my having what is essentially two "only children", the hours spent in daycare and preschool provided valuble socialization that we would not have had otherwise.

    My view towards families, is that a family is not defined by structure, but by attitudes, and there are many different paths people can take that arrive at the same destination.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    It's true that when my children were small, in the early 90s, society was more supportive of working mothers than it is today... at least, it expressed general, theoretical support and approval for the idea of mothers having jobs (for whatever that's worth, without paid parental leave, government-subsidized child care, and other benefits which every other country in the industrialized world provides, and which would offer practical support to working parents).
    The tide of social approval has now turned on working mothers; fortunately, my kids are almost grown up now, and it would be difficult for even a rabid conservative to justify encouraging me to stay home at this point; the money I earn is largely applied toward their college funds and my retirement.
    Today, unemployed mothers are held up as the paragon of responsible womanhood- up to and including mothers whose children have long since grown up and left the nest- and working women are villified.

    All of this is beside the point; one need only listen to it if one gives a crap what others think, which I don't, particularly.
    I do follow social trends and statistics, out of curiosity to see which way the wind's blowing and what the future might bring, but that's about it.
    And what I see is a lot of sensationalized yammering about how women are now "sacrificing" their careers to do what's "best" for their children, ie remaining unemployed.
    But in reality, I don't see this happening. I see more women than ever in the workforce; and most of them, like most women anywhere, are mothers.

    "Ever since 1970 the mainstream media have been pronouncing the death of feminism and reporting that working women have returned home to care for their children. Now such stories describe, based on scraps of anecdotal data, how elite (predominantly white) women are "choosing" to "opt out," ditching their career opportunities in favor of home and children or to care for aging parents. In 2000 Ellen Galinsky, president of the Families and Work Institute in New York, wearily responded to reporters, "I still meet people all the time who believe that the trend has turned, that more women are staying home with their kids, that there are going to be fewer dual-income families. But it's just not true."

    Such contentious stories conveniently mask the reality that most women have to work, regardless of their preference. They also obscure the fact that an absence of quality, affordable childcare and flexible working hours, among other family-friendly policies, greatly contributes to women's so-called "choice" to stay at home.

    In the past few years, a series of sensational stories have pitted stay-at-home mothers against "working women" in what the media coyly call the "mommy wars." When the New York Times ran a story on the controversy, one woman wrote the editor, "The word 'choice' has been used...as a euphemism for unpaid labor, with no job security, no health or vacation benefits and no retirement plans. No wonder men are not clamoring for this 'choice.' Many jobs in the workplace also involve drudgery, but do not leave one financially dependent on another person." *


    There it is. Most women- like most men- have to work.
    And those who remain unemployed often do so for lack of an alternative, not by "choice".
    This is the reality.
    Yet men, including those who have children, are encouraged to work guilt-free, encouraged to enjoy their work and find it fulfilling, encouraged to take pride in their contribution to society.
    Women are grudgingly permitted to work, on the condition that they at least pretend that they hate it and feel awful about it, that they believe they are neglecting their children by not remaining unemployed, that only compelled by direst necessity do they ever step foot outside the doors of their homes and into the larger world, and that if they had their way, they'd remain housewives, rather than 'neglecting" their children.
    These are the terms under which society, today, permits women to leave their homes and join the world.
    These were not the terms a decade and a half ago, when my children were small and I was joining the workforce.
    I feel very badly for young mothers today, and I want to offer them encouragement.
    I want to tell them to reject those terms, those labels, that stigma. I want to tell them to do what they have to do, without guilt... and to enjoy it and feel proud of it, just like men do- also without guilt.
    I want to tell them that they're amazing, balancing work and parenting, and they are appreciated.
    I want to tell them that they are needed- that society needs their hard work, their skills.... that no, the world would not- repeat: WOULD NOT- be a better place if they all just left the work force, went home, shut their doors, and watched Barney videos with their kids.
    Just as their kids need them, society also needs them. Society would suffer and possibly collapse, if women collectively left the work force and retreated to their homes to be housewives.
    We're keeping this ship afloat.
    Mothers, don't let anybody tell you different and don't let anybody, for one second, tell you that you're tolerated in the workplace on sufferance, and that society or your children would be better served if you just went home. It's bull****.
    Love your kids, love your job, love your life, love yourself, and be proud.
    And above all, learn to suspect the motives and detect the hidden agendas of any individual or institution who would tell you otherwise.


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    Last edited by 1069; 03-03-07 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #88
    The Bodhisattva

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    idea Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    1069

    LOL! My wife stays at home by Choice...as does EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HER FRIENDS!
    We are not rich by any means either and neither are they...

    It is easily done...
    It is realistic...

    It is the healthier choice for the kids and the family...

    Instead of putting down "Stay at Home" Mothers in an effort to empower yourself and justify your decisions and need to work...

    Why don't you listen to what "Stay at Home" Mothers and families are saying and stop assuming with your ridiculous "Barney Video" crap and learn something...

    OK...

    Women are in the workforce and that is fine...

    But society and you seem to value this more than structure and stability in the family that would benefit the children, and consequently the family, more than just the parents...

    That is all...
    Last edited by BodiSatva; 03-03-07 at 03:00 PM.
    My teachings are easy to understand
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    Yet your intellect will never grasp them,
    and if you try to practice them, you'll fail.

  9. #89
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    Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by BodiSatva View Post
    1069

    Instead of putting down "Stay at Home" Mothers in an effort to empower yourself and justify your decisions...

    Why don't you listen to what "Stay at Home" Mothers and families are saying and stop assuming with your ridiculous "Barney Video" crap...

    OK...

    Women are in the workforce and that is fine...

    But society and you seem to value this more than structure and stability in the family that would benefit the children, and consequently the family, more than just the parents...

    That is all...

    No, that is not "all".
    There is nothing "beneficial" to families, to children, to society, or to women themselves about women recusing themselves from contributing to the broader world of work and society and remaining unemployed.
    Most are not doing it by "choice" anyway, but for lack of state and federally-funded benefits and basic support services for working parents, which every other civilized nation in the world provides.
    Other nations recognize the value of women's contributions- beyond their biological functions, their ability to produce and nurture offspring, which they have always done and will always continue to do, regardless.

    Further, most mothers work, and this is also not a "choice" for very many of them, and there is nothing "beneficial" about social attitudes which suggest that they are failures rather than successes for working and raising children at the same time, or that children, families, or society in general would be better served if they just went away, or that they can best "contribute" by staying at home unemployed.

    It's bull****. It's misogyny.
    I urge women to reject it.
    Last edited by 1069; 03-03-07 at 03:11 PM.

  10. #90
    The Bodhisattva

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    idea Re: Why does Society Hate Families? Part II

    1069

    There is nothing "beneficial" to families, to children, to society, or to women themselves about women recusing themselves from contributing to the broader world of work and society and remaining unemployed.
    That word alone indicates that you are unwilling to look at the other side with open eyes. I will continue on the slim chance that you are actually an open person.

    I am not saying that working women are bad. Relax.

    We own are own business that my wife started. I have seen both sides of this situation. Most of what you seem unable to face is that for many it is a mind-set. It is psychology and how people look at it dictates how they respond.

    I am saying that more quality time with your kid is better than less. That is just how it is. It is better for the kids. This is the optimal situation...to be included in the family and circle rather than to not.

    It is also better for society since what you will find is better adjusted adults since, as children, their needs will be met as opposed to not met.

    Surely this is understandable?

    This is what my wife does and this is what Stace apparently does.

    Not just MORE time...but MORE time that is QUALITY TIME.

    Two parent households do not have to have two incomes. They don't. How do I know that this is a fact? We do it. If we can do it, then others can do it (random variables aside, since there are always variables.) This is just simple logic.

    The whole thing that you just seem to be unwilling to talk about is "What is best for the children and the family". You seem stuck on what is best for you, or what was mandatory at any rate. You seem as if you won't accept any other possibilities than the situation that you had to face, and that is unfortunate.

    Do you really think that, given the choice, it is better for mother's to work and see less of their kids? This is what you have been saying, isn't it?

    You seem to look down upon mothers like Stace, and that seems unreasonable...
    Last edited by BodiSatva; 03-03-07 at 06:52 PM.
    My teachings are easy to understand
    and easy to put into practice.
    Yet your intellect will never grasp them,
    and if you try to practice them, you'll fail.

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