View Poll Results: Who should serve the longer sentence?

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  • Bradley Manning

    2 14.29%
  • Robert Bales

    9 64.29%
  • Both roughly the same

    3 21.43%
  • DK/DC

    0 0%
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Thread: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

  1. #31
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    Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Okay, we can disagree on what it was, but why does motive matter? If someone lets off a firecracker at a sports game, but he intended to blow up the whole arena, he gets prosecuted for unauthorised use of a firework, not for attempted mass murder.
    The difference between the two is that you can directly see what Bales did, just do a body count.

    What Manning did was absolutely damaging just harder to measure.
    We do know that BinLaden had that information in his house so clearly he deemed it useful.

    How do you count such instances of raids, rescue missions not performed because informants lost confidence in our abilities to keep their identities confidential?

    Less tips= less action= potential for lost lives due to action we could have taken but didn't.

    Manning's incident was not an "oops" moment, he didn't release one item he had a problem with, he clearly and intentionally tried to do as much damage as he possibly could.

  2. #32
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    Re: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Okay, we can disagree on what it was, but why does motive matter? If someone lets off a firecracker at a sports game, but he intended to blow up the whole arena, he gets prosecuted for unauthorised use of a firework, not for attempted mass murder.
    If you look at what Manning was prosecuted for, most of it was of the "unauthorised use of a firework" nature.

    Transferring classified information to non-secure systems; modifying or installing unauthorized software to a system, using a compute system for 'unintended' purposes; circumventing security mechanisms; improper storage of Classified information; theft of records; taking 'national defense' information and either 'retaining' it or delivering it to 'persons not entitled to receive it'; knowingly accessing a computer without authorization or exceeding authorized access.

    He was found innocent of the treason count, which I would liken to extrapolating the above "use of fireworks" charges into an "attempted mass murder" charge.
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  3. #33
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    Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Okay, we can disagree on what it was, but why does motive matter? If someone lets off a firecracker at a sports game, but he intended to blow up the whole arena, he gets prosecuted for unauthorised use of a firework, not for attempted mass murder.
    You let off a firecracker and you injure someone then your motive would matter.

    I find the comparison between the two guys unfair however. To Godwin a bit, I'd have trouble thinking that someone who shared secrets with the Nazis with the intent of exposing Allied war crimes was more "evil" than someone who murdered more than a dozen people in cold blood. However the cumulative effect of treating such actions lightly would probably do more harm, because even if the consequences arent as great now they may be in the future and have been in past. It's a consequence of the human lifespan that we can't assign proportional sentences to every crime even if such a thing were calculable.

  4. #34
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    Re: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratrooper View Post
    The difference between the two is that you can directly see what Bales did, just do a body count.

    What Manning did was absolutely damaging just harder to measure.
    We do know that BinLaden had that information in his house so clearly he deemed it useful.

    How do you count such instances of raids, rescue missions not performed because informants lost confidence in our abilities to keep their identities confidential?

    Less tips= less action= potential for lost lives due to action we could have taken but didn't.

    Manning's incident was not an "oops" moment, he didn't release one item he had a problem with, he clearly and intentionally tried to do as much damage as he possibly could.
    Even in his sentencing he was more concerned about those whom he has placed at risk without knowing he had done so. He admitted to such. Course he could be playing for sympathy to downgrade the time. But most tend to think he was genuine about that part of it.

    Bales is correlated to Afghanistan and what he did, could be seen as personal.

    Whereas Manning actions were not. It was beyond himself.

  5. #35
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    Re: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I find the comparison between the two guys unfair however. To Godwin a bit, I'd have trouble thinking that someone who shared secrets with the Nazis with the intent of exposing Allied war crimes was more "evil" than someone who murdered more than a dozen people in cold blood. However the cumulative effect of treating such actions lightly would probably do more harm, because even if the consequences arent as great now they may be in the future and have been in past.
    Except that the consequence of Manning's action may well, and I'd argue would be more likely to, prove to save lives rather than endanger them. How could one judge?
    It's a consequence of the human lifespan that we can't assign proportional sentences to every crime even if such a thing were calculable.
    I don't understand that point. What has the human life-span got to do with it?
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    Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Except that the consequence of Manning's action may well, and I'd argue would be more likely to, prove to save lives rather than endanger them. How could one judge?
    The point is you couldnt calculate mannings effect anymore than the hypothetical unwitting nazi collaborators effect. There's no balance sheet when it comes to this.

    I don't understand that point. What has the human life-span got to do with it?
    That great crimes get great sentences even though some are worse than others due to the nature of human existence. Somebody who murders one thousand people is in effect no likely to receive a greater sentence than someone who murders ten. If we sit around and compare the two lawbreakers we'll agree one is worse but the comparative extent of punishment is disproportionate.

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    Re: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    That great crimes get great sentences even though some are worse than others due to the nature of human existence. Somebody who murders one thousand people is in effect no likely to receive a greater sentence than someone who murders ten. If we sit around and compare the two lawbreakers we'll agree one is worse but the comparative extent of punishment is disproportionate.
    So, are you saying we should accept that as a fact of life? I'd agree that is how things tend to work, but I'd balk at calling it anything remotely akin to justice. Would you?
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    Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Even in his sentencing he was more concerned about those whom he has placed at risk without knowing he had done so. He admitted to such. Course he could be playing for sympathy to downgrade the time. But most tend to think he was genuine about that part of it.

    Bales is correlated to Afghanistan and what he did, could be seen as personal.

    Whereas Manning actions were not. It was beyond himself.
    If he was smart enough to become an intelligence analyst, then he was smart enough to know the consequence of release that much classified material. Ofcourse he is going to come across as concerned he wants to get the shortest sentence he can.

    He knew well the consequence of his actions, it would have been briefed to him repeatedly during his advanced individual training as well as his mandatory annual training.

    There is simply no way someone could do this without knowing that.

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    Re: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratrooper View Post
    If he was smart enough to become an intelligence analyst, then he was smart enough to know the consequence of release that much classified material. Ofcourse he is going to come across as concerned he wants to get the shortest sentence he can.

    He knew well the consequence of his actions, it would have been briefed to him repeatedly during his advanced individual training as well as his mandatory annual training.

    There is simply no way someone could do this without knowing that.
    I agree.....I don't think Bales can even compare when it comes to the scale of things.

  10. #40
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    Re: Who should get the longer sentence, Manning or Bales?

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Manning.....he put others lives at Risk moreso than Bales.
    Not really..no...he didnt. Bales took 16 lives but his actions created a far more hostile environment for soldiers in an already ****ty situation. He put far more soldiers at risk than did Manning. In fact, so did the prison guards at Abu Ghraib and the marines who pissed on the dead Taliban. well...not so much them as the douchebag that videotaped it and/or took pictures and posted them.

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