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Should these teens be tried as adults

Should the 15 and 16 year old also be tried as adults

  • yes and throw away the key

    Votes: 72 87.8%
  • no, they deserve a second chance

    Votes: 10 12.2%

  • Total voters
    82
Call them whatever you like but it doesn't change the fact that they are kids.

Thank you. That is, or should be, the focal point of this discussion. They are what they are, irrespective of what they have done - and the ostensible question put is "Should teens be tried as adults?" not "Do their deeds confer maturity upon children?"
 
Why can't they be charged as juveniles as accessories to the murder?

They were conspirators in a murder scheme (there were a list of 4 victims to be killed also) and in Oklahoma when a murder or wrongful death is caused by a member of a team engaging in criminal activity then the other team members also can be charged for that murder or wrongful death if they were at the location and time that said event occurred.



This has been done before. Why are they making such a big deal out of this PARTICULAR case? It's definitely a mystery.


Because it is a heinous crime (when they said they done it for fun.)
There have been PLENTY of juvenile murderers or accessories to murders that were much more heinous than this, and they were charged as juveniles.

Where? Was it in Oklahoma? Did those adolescents who committed those heinous crimes and charged as juveniles commit them in a small small city (Duncan pop 23,431) ducan ok - Yahoo! Search Results
 
Hmm, I just reviewed some of the recent news articles about the case and I find something strange in the application of charges.

The three teens are Jones, a 17 yo white kid who was driving the car; Luna, a 16 yo black kid who was sitting in the backseat and who shot the victim; Edwards, a 15 yo black kid who was riding in the passenger seat.

Only Luna and Edwards were charged with First Degree Murder.
Jones was charged with driving a vehicle used in discharge of a weapon and accessory after the fact.

Why wasn't Jones charged with First Degree Murder? He did more than the 15 yo Edwards, who was apparently a passenger egging the issue on.

From what little we know all three were culpable of conspiracy to commit murder, all three were in the car together when Luna shot the victim, so why is the oldest (who also happens to be white) not being charged with First Degree Murder? Did I miss something?

They should all be charged with Murder One.
 
Knowing and doing are not the same things. We don't treat teenagers like adults, because they aren't.

You are correct. Knowing it is wrong is not a chargeable offense. Doing the dead on the other hand is a chargeable offense. And that is why they are different things.:mrgreen:
 
DA's in Oklahoma are elected by their county and thus it is a political issue. If DA's were appointed instead then they would not have to worry about re-election and as long as the governor was of the same party that appointed him would probably do so again.

Well, that could help, but certainly wouldn't eliminate all the problems.
 
They were conspirators in a murder scheme (there were a list of 4 victims to be killed also) and in Oklahoma when a murder or wrongful death is caused by a member of a team engaging in criminal activity then the other team members also can be charged for that murder or wrongful death if they were at the location and time that said event occurred.


Don't you think you should wait until the trial/pre-trial discovery information? We have only heard from the prosecution. You are basing all of your opinions on statements made by the prosecution. Can you not see how you are wrong here?



Because it is a heinous crime (when they said they done it for fun.)

Again, this is according to the prosecutor. We don't really know why. We haven't heard from the defense.

Where? Was it in Oklahoma? Did those adolescents who committed those heinous crimes and charged as juveniles commit them in a small small city (Duncan pop 23,431) ducan ok - Yahoo! Search Results

All over the country. Are you saying you think all juveniles are processed as adults? They most certainly are not. What the hell does the size of the city have to do with anything at all?
 
Well, that could help, but certainly wouldn't eliminate all the problems.

Term limits for that position would help even more. Also attorneys, that is members of the Bar, should not be allowed to run for any elective office and that would include those who resign or disbarred. Once a member of the bar they belong to the Judaical branch and should not be a member of the Legislative Branch or Executive Branch. This should shield to some extent the members of the Judicial Branch from political influence.
 
Don't you think you should wait until the trial/pre-trial discovery information? We have only heard from the prosecution. You are basing all of your opinions on statements made by the prosecution. Can you not see how you are wrong here?

When the defense comes out with their points I'll be able to make a correction then.





Again, this is according to the prosecutor. We don't really know why. We haven't heard from the defense.

I can change my opinion then.


All over the country. Are you saying you think all juveniles are processed as adults? They most certainly are not. What the hell does the size of the city have to do with anything at all?

A large city is more likely to have such crimes and are used to them and thus is viewed as normal. Small cities like Duncan are not and thus is more shocking. For example, Oklahoma City has crimes like this at least once a year. Duncan has not has such in decades.
 
When the defense comes out with their points I'll be able to make a correction then.


It doesn't really matter what you think or say in the bigger picture here, however it is wrong to judge before you have all of the information, as I'm sure you know. You are making a conscious decision to pass judgment in this particular case.




I can change my opinion then.

That's irrelevant. These boys are being convicted by the public before they've even been tried. That is the OPPOSITE of how our system is supposed to work. Of course the public is free to "think" whatever it wants, but it just displays an ignorance for how our judicial system operates.



A large city is more likely to have such crimes and are used to them and thus is viewed as normal. Small cities like Duncan are not and thus is more shocking. For example, Oklahoma City has crimes like this at least once a year. Duncan has not has such in decades.

That's a lame excuse.
 
Don't you think you should wait until the trial/pre-trial discovery information? We have only heard from the prosecution. You are basing all of your opinions on statements made by the prosecution. Can you not see how you are wrong here?

can't you see that your constant harping on everything being "according to the prosecution" is a lame argument? do you really believe the prosecution would be stupid enough to release false information? that would be counter productive and set them up for mistrial and lawsuits. you can bet your ass that if the prosecution in publically releasing information, they have verified its accuracy.
 
can't you see that your constant harping on everything being "according to the prosecution" is a lame argument? do you really believe the prosecution would be stupid enough to release false information? that would be counter productive and set them up for mistrial and lawsuits. you can bet your ass that if the prosecution in publically releasing information, they have verified its accuracy.

Not at all. It's 100% the truth. The information you are going by is based on statements released by the prosecution. Says so right in the article. Prosecutors leak information to the press all the time. Yes, sometimes false information too. Look at the Duke Lacrosse case.
 
Most of you already have your minds made up, that's why you won't listen to reason.
 
Not at all. It's 100% the truth. The information you are going by is based on statements released by the prosecution. Says so right in the article. Prosecutors leak information to the press all the time. Yes, sometimes false information too. Look at the Duke Lacrosse case.

funny how it's been over a week and we haven't heard anything from the defense that counters anything "the prosecution" has reported. you would think that if the prosecution was lying....the defense or the perp's families would have made some kind of statement
 
Most of you already have your minds made up, that's why you won't listen to reason.

whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty is still to be determined. that doesn't change my opinion that a bunch of teenagers who could commit this type of crime are not children and should be charged as adults
 
I disagree, when you lock someone up and leave a person essentially helpless and then the state gives them a lethal injection, that is effing murder. Play semantics all you want.

If by "semantics" you mean "using actual definitions of words rather than make believe" then sure, I'll use semantics.

Granted, since you seem to have an imagineary definition for what "murder" is perhaps you have an imaginary definition for what "semantics" means...so it's hard to really understand what you're saying since I don't have a "ChrisL" dictionary full of your made up words and meanings.
 
If by "semantics" you mean "using actual definitions of words rather than make believe" then sure, I'll use semantics.

Granted, since you seem to have an imagineary definition for what "murder" is perhaps you have an imaginary definition for what "semantics" means...so it's hard to really understand what you're saying since I don't have a "ChrisL" dictionary full of your made up words and meanings.

Killing someone is murder. Even if they murdered someone in the past. The state is still killing someone. What the hell would you call it? An execution to be politically correct. It's murder. According to MOST of the civilized world, capital punishment is cruel and unusual punishment. One-hundred and forty countries have ABOLISHED the death penalty. Take a look at who WE are on par with in our views of the DP.

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Ethiopia
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
North Korea
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Qatar
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
Somalia
South Sudan
Sudan
Syria
Taiwan
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Vietnam
Yemen
Zimbabwe


Read more: The Death Penalty Worldwide | Infoplease.com The Death Penalty Worldwide | Infoplease.com
 
Countries that have abolished the death penalty.

Albania (2000)
Andorra (1990)
Angola (1992)
Argentina (2008)
Armenia (2003)
Australia (1984)
Austria (1950)
Azerbaijan (1998)
Belgium (1996)
Bhutan (2004)
Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
Bulgaria (1998)
Burundi (2009 )
Cambodia (1989)
Canada (1976)
Cape Verde (1981)
Colombia (1910)
Cook Islands (2007)
Costa Rica (1877)
Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
Croatia (1990)
Cyprus (1983)
Czech Republic (1990)
Denmark (1933)
Djibouti (1995)
Dominican Republic (1966)
Ecuador (1906)
Estonia (1998)
Finland (1949)
France (1981)
Gabon (2010)
Georgia (1997)
Germany (1949)
Greece (1993)
Guinea-Bissau (1993)
Haiti (1987)
Honduras (1956)
Hungary (1990)
Iceland (1928)
Ireland (1990)
Italy (1947)
Kyrgyzstan (2007)
Kiribati (1979)
Latvia (2012)
Liechtenstein (1987)
Lithuania (1998)
Luxembourg (1979)
Macedonia (1991)
Malta (1971)
Marshall Islands (1986)
Mauritius (1995)
Mexico (2005)
Micronesia (1986)
Moldova (1995)
Monaco (1962)
Montenegro (2002)
Mozambique (1990)
Namibia (1990)
Nepal (1990)
Netherlands (1870)
New Zealand (1961)
Nicaragua (1979)
Niue (n.a.)
Norway (1905)
Palau (n.a.)
Panama (1903)
Paraguay (1992)
Philippines (2006)
Poland (1997)
Portugal (1867)
Romania (1989)
Rwanda (2007)
Samoa (2004)
San Marino (1848)
São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
Senegal (2004)
Serbia (2002)
Seychelles (1993)
Slovakia (1990)
Slovenia (1989)
Solomon Islands (1966)
South Africa (1995)
Spain (1978)
Sweden (1921)
Switzerland (1942)
Timor-Leste (1999)
Togo (2009)
Turkey (2002)
Turkmenistan (1999)
Tuvalu (1978)
Ukraine (1999)
United Kingdom (1973)
Uruguay (1907)
Uzbekistan (2008)
Vanuatu (1980)
Vatican City (1969)
Venezuela (1863)


Read more: The Death Penalty Worldwide | Infoplease.com The Death Penalty Worldwide | Infoplease.com
 
whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty is still to be determined. that doesn't change my opinion that a bunch of teenagers who could commit this type of crime are not children and should be charged as adults

That's for the judge to decide AFTER hearing all the relevant information.
 
That's for the judge to decide AFTER hearing all the relevant information.

whatever. they have been charged as adults and I agree with that decision. you don't. :shrug:
 
Killing someone is murder.

No, it's not. Killing someone illegally is murder.

A soldier engaging in a legal war that kills someone isn't murder.

A person killing an attacker in self defense isn't murder.

A person pulling the plug on an illegally applied respirator causing the unhealthy individual to die isn't murder.

A doctor aborting a fetus in the 2nd trimester in the U.S. isn't murder

A person drinking and driving and getting into a wreck that results in someones death may very well not be murder.

Killing != Murder

Sorry, words have meanings. That's not "semantics", that's basic facts. Capital Punishment being illegal in Venezuela or Nepal doesn't mean that capital punishment, which is legal in this country, is "murder" universally and especially in this country. But nice attempt to "appeal to emotion", wonderful use of a sad fallacy filled tactic.
 
That's the claims from the prosecution. I don't think you know enough about these boys or this case to make any kind of determinations or judgments. If you respected our judicial system at all, you would realize how the position you're taking is so wrong. You have these kids tried and convicted. How sad. I'm hopeful that this is just a knee jerk emotional reaction and that cooler heads will prevail eventually.

I thought it was understood that any consequences they face or I want them to face are... follow it:

IF . THEY . ARE . FOUND . GUILTY

Cool?
 
I thought it was understood that any consequences they face or I want them to face are... follow it:

IF . THEY . ARE . FOUND . GUILTY

Cool?

You asked what else is there to know. The defense side of the story. DO. YOU. UNDERSTAND? :lol:
 
No, it's not. Killing someone illegally is murder.

A soldier engaging in a legal war that kills someone isn't murder.

A person killing an attacker in self defense isn't murder.

A person pulling the plug on an illegally applied respirator causing the unhealthy individual to die isn't murder.

A doctor aborting a fetus in the 2nd trimester in the U.S. isn't murder

A person drinking and driving and getting into a wreck that results in someones death may very well not be murder.

Killing != Murder

Sorry, words have meanings. That's not "semantics", that's basic facts. Capital Punishment being illegal in Venezuela or Nepal doesn't mean that capital punishment, which is legal in this country, is "murder" universally and especially in this country. But nice attempt to "appeal to emotion", wonderful use of a sad fallacy filled tactic.

According to international law, it's illegal. It's illegal in 140 countries. We are on par with the most primitive countries. I certainly hope I don't read any complaints from you next time there's a stoning in Iran. The method might be different, but the results are the same.

And yes, you are playing semantics and taking the government's side against it's people. Shameful IMO.
 
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