Should these teens be tried as adults

ChrisL said:

Yes, I accept your apology, but you really should practice on leaving the personal stuff out of your debate. It makes you look weak, seriously.



Interesting information here from your link:







Funny, I didn't note that in the link provided. Care to quote that section for me?

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Firstly, I wasn't the one who introduced the personal into the debate - THAT WAS YOU, by bringing reference to having a 17 year old son - I didn't create it out of thin air - so if anyone should refrain from looking weak by bringing in the personal, that would be you - try to practice what you preach.

Secondly, yes, Canadians are fed up with our justice system and the lack of real penalties or penalties that mean something. We have life sentences, but no life sentence exists without the possibility of parole - even convicted serial killers have had parole hearings and some murderers have been released on parole after serving what many people consider only a short period of time. As an example, we've had a man who decapitated another man on a Greyhound bus - he was found not guilty by reason of insanity and yet just a few short years later he is out in the public on day passes and will perhaps be released for longer periods soon. We've also had a doctor who killed his two toddlers in revenge against his wife and he was also found not guilty by reason of insanity and he was fully released a few short years later. And there are untold numbers of criminals out on bail on gun charges who murder while on bail or commit other crimes with a weapon. People here are fed up.

Finally, the link I provided was not related to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, just the issue of capital punishment. This act was revised and adopted in 2012 so I'm not sure if there is polling related to it and I won't bother digging up polls on the previous acts since they're no longer relevant.

Goshin said:

Ever had someone you love murdered? It can change your mind.

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That's probably why we leave administering justice up to the government and lock up vigilantes, eh?

shrubnose said:

Well it looks like you got one thing right.

I'll just add that I am not interested in trying to judge those young men, I'll leave that to the Oklahoma justice system.

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Kind of a waste of time to participate in a website devoted to the sharing of opinion and the exchange of views, don't you think, when you criticize people for expressing an opinion - not just disagreeing with the opinion but disagreeing with people actually voicing an opinion - and your not wanting to express any opinion yourself.

CanadaJohn said:

Firstly, I wasn't the one who introduced the personal into the debate - THAT WAS YOU, by bringing reference to having a 17 year old son - I didn't create it out of thin air - so if anyone should refrain from looking weak by bringing in the personal, that would be you - try to practice what you preach.

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By personal, I mean you personally attacking my child by insinuating that he is some psychopath. Get a grip on yourself.

Secondly, yes, Canadians are fed up with our justice system and the lack of real penalties or penalties that mean something. We have life sentences, but no life sentence exists without the possibility of parole - even convicted serial killers have had parole hearings and some murderers have been released on parole after serving what many people consider only a short period of time. As an example, we've had a man who decapitated another man on a Greyhound bus - he was found not guilty by reason of insanity and yet just a few short years later he is out in the public on day passes and will perhaps be released for longer periods soon. We've also had a doctor who killed his two toddlers in revenge against his wife and he was also found not guilty by reason of insanity and he was fully released a few short years later. And there are untold numbers of criminals out on bail on gun charges who murder while on bail or commit other crimes with a weapon. People here are fed up.

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I read the link, and it said that when LWOP was introduced, the statistics changed. What you state above does not change that fact gleaned from your own link.

Finally, the link I provided was not related to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, just the issue of capital punishment. This act was revised and adopted in 2012 so I'm not sure if there is polling related to it and I won't bother digging up polls on the previous acts since they're no longer relevant.

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Exactly, it does not discuss the juvenile system at all. You can't just make claims, you have to back them with proof. Well, I guess you can just throw claims out there without anything to back them but it's certainly not a very good tactic to make your point.

Anyhow, when and if you produce a link or something new about this particular case, then feel free to quote me, but I think I've done just about everything I can to try to convince people that killing people who are already in custody is useless.

ChrisL said:

I completely understand that it would make even more emotional about it. Emotion should probably not be included when applying the law.

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And it wasn't. Juries found the murderers of my brother guilty, and sentenced them to death in accordance with the law of my state... which law was passed by the elected legislature.


What is justice? Justice is making the punishment fit the crime. Take a life with no excuse or valid reason? Lose your own. That is justice.

shrubnose said:

That's probably why we leave administering justice up to the government and lock up vigilantes, eh?

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See my reply to ChrisL. The murderers in question were tried by a judge, found guilty by jury, sentenced to die by jury, all according to my State's laws made by elected legislators... how you get vigiliantes out of that is beyond me.

Goshin said:

And it wasn't. Juries found the murderers of my brother guilty, and sentenced them to death in accordance with the law of my state... which law was passed by the elected legislature.


What is justice? Justice is making the punishment fit the crime. Take a life with no excuse or valid reason? Lose your own. That is justice.

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That is totally your opinion and nothing more.

ChrisL said:

That is totally your opinion and nothing more.

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And the law of the land in many, if not most, of our democratically governed States.


A fundamental point of Western jurisprudence is "as much as possible, make the victim whole." A murder victim cannot be made whole. Thus the only thing left is "let the punishment fit the crime."


Take a life unjustifiably, lose a life, is a balancing of the equation in a way no other outcome can achieve.

Goshin said:

And the law of the land in many, if not most, of our democratically governed States.

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I'm pretty sure there are at least 19 states that don't have a death penalty.

ChrisL said:

I'm pretty sure there are at least 19 states that don't have a death penalty.

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Which would leave 31 that do.... so I'd say it is more than just MY opinion.

Goshin said:

Which would leave 31 that do.... so I'd say it is more than just MY opinion.

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Look, I'm not going to get into this stupid tit for tat thing with you. I said my piece, and you are free to disagree.

Goshin said:

See my reply to ChrisL. The murderers in question were tried by a judge, found guilty by jury, sentenced to die by jury, all according to my State's laws made by elected legislators... how you get vigiliantes out of that is beyond me.

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The simple answer is that I didn't get it out of that, I got it out of the history of the USA and the world.

ChrisL said:

By personal, I mean you personally attacking my child by insinuating that he is some psychopath. Get a grip on yourself.



I read the link, and it said that when LWOP was introduced, the statistics changed. What you state above does not change that fact gleaned from your own link.



Exactly, it does not discuss the juvenile system at all. You can't just make claims, you have to back them with proof. Well, I guess you can just throw claims out there without anything to back them but it's certainly not a very good tactic to make your point.

Anyhow, when and if you produce a link or something new about this particular case, then feel free to quote me, but I think I've done just about everything I can to try to convince people that killing people who are already in custody is useless.

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You know, I have to wonder where you're coming from - I didn't attack your child at all - I, in effect, attacked you, since you claimed to have a 17 year old son so that led you to understand how a 17 yr old could do something like these three young men are accused of - my condolences were to your son whom you seem to be implying is capable of murder, simply because he was 17. Pretty sad, for him.

As for the poll - nothing you've posted changes the fact that when asked 63% of Canadians polled favored the return of the death penalty.

Finally, I'm just as entitled as you to express anecdotal information from my experiences here in Canada and that includes the public discussion/debate about youth criminal justice. If you're going to demand a link for every view I hold, you're not going to get it because I make up my own mind based on a variety of source material, thought, and experience. You're pretty free with your views without attribution, so grow up.

ChrisL said:

Look, I'm not going to get into this stupid tit for tat thing with you. I said my piece, and you are free to disagree.

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One could easily dispute who made this a "tit for tat", but ok fine. I disagree.

shrubnose said:

The simple answer is that I didn't get it out of that, I got it out of the history of the USA and the world.

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Good for you, I suppose. However I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about within the rule of law.

CanadaJohn said:

You know, I have to wonder where you're coming from - I didn't attack your child at all - I, in effect, attacked you, since you claimed to have a 17 year old son so that led you to understand how a 17 yr old could do something like these three young men are accused of - my condolences were to your son whom you seem to be implying is capable of murder, simply because he was 17. Pretty sad, for him.

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Whatever. What you said was rude at the very least, and now I can see that your apology was also insincere.

As for the poll - nothing you've posted changes the fact that when asked 63% of Canadians polled favored the return of the death penalty.

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It most certainly does, the fact that when LWOP was brought the statistics CHANGED. Lol!

Finally, I'm just as entitled as you to express anecdotal information from my experiences here in Canada and that includes the public discussion/debate about youth criminal justice. If you're going to demand a link for every view I hold, you're not going to get it because I make up my own mind based on a variety of source material, thought, and experience. You're pretty free with your views without attribution, so grow up.

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I never said otherwise. You made a specific claim about people being unhappy with the juvenile justice system in Canada. Where did you glean that information from if not from a poll or some other statistical data? AND if you did get the information from some statistics, then you can certainly provide them. If not, then I will assume that this was another anecdotal story.

Goshin said:

One could easily dispute who made this a "tit for tat", but ok fine. I disagree.

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I think you quoted me first, which means you started it. :mrgreen:

ChrisL said:

That is totally your opinion and nothing more.

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Well it certainly doesn't sound like any kind of modern system of justice to me

It sounds more like eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Straight out of the Old Testament and the Koran.

ChrisL said:

Whatever. What you said was rude at the very least, and now I can see that your apology was also insincere.



It most certainly does, the fact that when LWOP was brought the statistics CHANGED. Lol!



I never said otherwise. You made a specific claim about people being unhappy with the juvenile justice system in Canada. Where did you glean that information from if not from a poll or some other statistical data? AND if you did get the information from some statistics, then you can certainly provide them. If not, then I will assume that this was another anecdotal story.

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Firstly, my apology was sincere, however, you were incapable of accepting it graciously and moving on, insisting on attacking me - if you attack me, falsely, I'll respond - if you don't like it too effing bad.

Secondly, the poll is the poll and you can glean from it what you will - it was provided because you asked for it.

Finally, not all information known to man must eminate from either a poll or statistical data. I shared with you that people "feel" that youth in Canada are not being sufficiently charged and sentenced under the youth justice system here. If you don't believe it, again, too effing bad - come here and talk to some Canadians if you want.

On that, I'll say goodnight.

CanadaJohn said:

Firstly, my apology was sincere, however, you were incapable of accepting it graciously and moving on, insisting on attacking me - if you attack me, falsely, I'll respond - if you don't like it too effing bad.

Secondly, the poll is the poll and you can glean from it what you will - it was provided because you asked for it.

Finally, not all information known to man must eminate from either a poll or statistical data. I shared with you that people "feel" that youth in Canada are not being sufficiently charged and sentenced under the youth justice system here. If you don't believe it, again, too effing bad - come here and talk to some Canadians if you want.

On that, I'll say goodnight.

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Good, I appreciate it. Your argument stinks to high heaven anyway. :lol:

CanadaJohn said:

Kind of a waste of time to participate in a website devoted to the sharing of opinion and the exchange of views, don't you think, when you criticize people for expressing an opinion - not just disagreeing with the opinion but disagreeing with people actually voicing an opinion - and your not wanting to express any opinion yourself.

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You are wrong. I did express my opinion.

And my opinion is that this case should be handled by the Oklahoma system of justice.

shrubnose said:

You are wrong. I did express my opinion.

And my opinion is that this case should be handled by the Oklahoma system of justice.

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Did any of the people you attacked suggest otherwise?

ChrisL said:

It's all in the links I posted. I agree, that in cases of murder, a juvenile should be held for an extended period of time. I just don't know of a logical way to go about doing that, but throwing them into the adult correctional system is not doing anyone any favors.

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I would say the parents, family, girlfriend and friends would enjoy the favor, as well as the people of Australia. Shoot an innocent man in the back for fun and pay the price.

Goshin said:

And it wasn't. Juries found the murderers of my brother guilty, and sentenced them to death in accordance with the law of my state... which law was passed by the elected legislature.


What is justice? Justice is making the punishment fit the crime. Take a life with no excuse or valid reason? Lose your own. That is justice.

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I always put it as this, due process is the legitimate process where abused rights become forfeit, meaning it must be adjuticated and guilt proven. If one abuses their freedom by committing a wrong against someone such as theft, violence, etc. then they forfeit that freedom for a period of time certain, same with life. If one uses their life to end another's without just cause it should be a minimum of loss of freedom, with forfeiture of life being an option for the especially cold blooded acts. Rape IMO is an either/or as well, I think harsh sentences at the least, but not opposed to death for forcible under many circumstances due to the exceptionally heinous nature of the act.

CanadaJohn said:

Did any of the people you attacked suggest otherwise?

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some of the people on this forum already have these young men convicted and are ready to execute them. I don't go along with that kind of thinking.