View Poll Results: Should the 15 and 16 year old also be tried as adults

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes and throw away the key

    89 89.00%
  • no, they deserve a second chance

    11 11.00%
Page 77 of 114 FirstFirst ... 2767757677787987 ... LastLast
Results 761 to 770 of 1132

Thread: Should these teens be tried as adults

  1. #761
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Theoretical Physics Lab
    Last Seen
    01-06-15 @ 11:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    25,120

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Oh please Gipper, you are not that obtuse. I find many of your posts too entertaining as well as informed to think that. You know very well I am talking about the protected class of children, i.e. minors who have not reached the legally recognized aged of adulthood.
    A legitimate argument if 18 was the exact moment a brain could just "figure it out" universally. As hit upon before, becoming an "adult" at 18 is just a line in the sand that's required for universal enforcement. There's really no rational basis, psychologically or physiologically, for that number. It's just...used.

    The purpose of trying kids as adults for different crimes at different ages is more of a pursuit for justice. Hell, the human brain isn't fully formed until the mid 20s. If a 19 year old went and shot someone in cold blood, are you supporting him being tried as a kid, or are you just going to tow the line by saying he's over some randomly invoked, arbitrary age?

    Then you must have forgotten what it was like to be a kid. I'm quite sure that at some point in your minority you played the "sheep" to older kids and/or adults you looked up to. It may have been displayed in other forms of bad behavior, hijinks, or whatever you choose to call it...but it likely occurred nonetheless.

    Did the particular kid we are talking about pull the tirgger? NO. Did he control the vehicle they were in? NO. Could he have done either? Possibly but we don't know, and not knowing means it is also possible he can be reformed. So again, until I find out more regarding his "priors" I'd say some time in juvie might be just the thing to cure him of his bad actions. If not, by the time he gets out he will be an adult and how to deal with that won't be much of an issue.
    Maybe I forgot what it was like to be a kid. I was captain of my school's Quiz Bowl team through high school (think of team Jeopardy), which prevented me from playing football. Of course, I was starting varsity pitcher as a sophomore, but that's another story. Sure, I've done stuff to "be cool", but shee-it...if someone told me to go with them to murder someone in cold blood to "fit in", I'd probably do some sort of mix between looking at them like they lost their damned minds, and booking it double-speed to an adult and telling them what they said. High schoolers know right from wrong, for the most part. Now, they may try to rationalize minor bullying, cheating, etc. However, even the most dim-witted teen knows that murder is wrong.

    If they don't, I think society is better off with them in the ground.

  2. #762
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,598
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    A legitimate argument if 18 was the exact moment a brain could just "figure it out" universally. As hit upon before, becoming an "adult" at 18 is just a line in the sand that's required for universal enforcement. There's really no rational basis, psychologically or physiologically, for that number. It's just...used.

    The purpose of trying kids as adults for different crimes at different ages is more of a pursuit for justice. Hell, the human brain isn't fully formed until the mid 20s. If a 19 year old went and shot someone in cold blood, are you supporting him being tried as a kid, or are you just going to tow the line by saying he's over some randomly invoked, arbitrary age?
    It's still a legitimate argument because WE adults set the limit at 18. We could very easily set it lower, say at 16...and I would be totally down for it. However, currently we have decided that people under 18 deserve (for whatever reason) special protection and considerations. If you don't like it...work to change the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Maybe I forgot what it was like to be a kid. I was captain of my school's Quiz Bowl team through high school (think of team Jeopardy), which prevented me from playing football. Of course, I was starting varsity pitcher as a sophomore, but that's another story. Sure, I've done stuff to "be cool", but shee-it...if someone told me to go with them to murder someone in cold blood to "fit in", I'd probably do some sort of mix between looking at them like they lost their damned minds, and booking it double-speed to an adult and telling them what they said. High schoolers know right from wrong, for the most part. Now, they may try to rationalize minor bullying, cheating, etc. However, even the most dim-witted teen knows that murder is wrong.

    If they don't, I think society is better off with them in the ground.
    Well, what's "cool" at that age is relative. And we see this in all sorts of news articles about how kids act these days and what motivates them. The point is you did "act the fool" in situations that might have harmed someone, albeit in ways you considered unimportant then and still do today.

    The fact remains, the youngest of the participants did no more than ride along and provide moral support. Can you say with absolute certainty he cannot be redeemed if sent to juvie instead of the big house?
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #763
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Theoretical Physics Lab
    Last Seen
    01-06-15 @ 11:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    25,120

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    It's still a legitimate argument because WE adults set the limit at 18. We could very easily set it lower, say at 16...and I would be totally down for it. However, currently we have decided that people under 18 deserve (for whatever reason) special protection and considerations. If you don't like it...work to change the law.
    I have to say that this is an exceptionally scary position to take.

    Well, what's "cool" at that age is relative. And we see this in all sorts of news articles about how kids act these days and what motivates them. The point is you did "act the fool" in situations that might have harmed someone, albeit in ways you considered unimportant then and still do today.

    The fact remains, the youngest of the participants did no more than ride along and provide moral support. Can you say with absolute certainty he cannot be redeemed if sent to juvie instead of the big house?
    What's "cool" may be relative, but murder is never relative.

    And yes, I can say with a fair share of certainty that there is no redemption in spending a few months in juvenile hall for murder.

  4. #764
    Professor
    Sig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    11-29-13 @ 11:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,179

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post

    We still allow trial as an adult for a juvenile when we consider the crime committed especially heinous such that youth is no excuse. That’s why I have no objection to the 16 yo shooter and 17 yo driver being tried as adults. However, until I know more about the 15 yo’s priors I’d hesitate to throw him into adult prison for going along with the pack and just “being there.” I’ll reserve judgment until after I learn more about why he was facing probation.
    Good points. However, if an examination of the 15 year-old were to determine that he is an incorrigible sociopath who is not going to improve with age, IMO, he should be tried as an adult, sentenced as an adult, and executed when he attains the age of 21. (I don't believe in executing criminals until they are old enough to legally consume alcoholic beverages.)
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  5. #765
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Good points. However, if an examination of the 15 year-old were to determine that he is an incorrigible sociopath who is not going to improve with age, IMO, he should be tried as an adult, sentenced as an adult, and executed when he attains the age of 21. (I don't believe in executing criminals until they are old enough to legally consume alcoholic beverages.)
    There is no possibility to make a prediction like that with any degree of accuracy. And if he's a sociopath who will not improve his age, what difference does it make if you shoot him at 21 or 15 if you're going to shoot him anyway?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #766
    Professor
    Sig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    11-29-13 @ 11:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,179

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    There is no possibility to make a prediction like that with any degree of accuracy. And if he's a sociopath who will not improve his age, what difference does it make if you shoot him at 21 or 15 if you're going to shoot him anyway?
    The examination would be continuous throughout his time in juvenile and adult detention. If he were to exhibit continuing sociopathic behavior during this time, he would get the gallows when he turns 21.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  7. #767
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,598
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I have to say that this is an exceptionally scary position to take.
    How is it scary? It's exactly the way the system is set up to work. You are a concerned voter....change the law. Otherwise accept the way current law works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    What's "cool" may be relative, but murder is never relative.

    And yes, I can say with a fair share of certainty that there is no redemption in spending a few months in juvenile hall for murder.
    Well again, the kid we are talking about did not commit a murder did he? He was present at one and can best be described as an accessory. Of course, if you commit murder then go hide out at your grandmother's house she is technically an "acessory" for helping hide you. Should Gramma go to the big house because she cared about her grandson enough to let him stay there?

    Now before you answer, the LAW states that she should and could very well be held to that level of account...but it's highly unlikely any prosecutor would charge her. We don't need to charge this 15 yo with murder either. He can face accessory after the fact charges in juvie.

    So he witnessed a murder, may have even urged his buddy on to show he had "heart" to be in the group...then again he may just have ridden along actually quite scared and pretending to be "all good with it." In either case he does not need to spend 25 to life for his actions. He can spend the next three years in juvie instead, hopefully coming out a better man.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #768
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Theoretical Physics Lab
    Last Seen
    01-06-15 @ 11:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    25,120

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    How is it scary? It's exactly the way the system is set up to work. You are a concerned voter....change the law. Otherwise accept the way current law works.
    What's scary is that you accept this one-size-fits-all view of the law.

    Well again, the kid we are talking about did not commit a murder did he? He was present at one and can best be described as an accessory. Of course, if you commit murder then go hide out at your grandmother's house she is technically an "acessory" for helping hide you. Should Gramma go to the big house because she cared about her grandson enough to let him stay there? LOL Now before you answer, the LAW states that she should and could very well be held to that level of account...but most prosecutors wouldn't charge her. We don't need to charge this 15 yo with murder either. He can face accessory after the fact charges in juvie.

    So he witnessed a murder, may have even urged his buddy on to show he had "heart" to be in the group...then again he may just have ridden along actually quite scared and pretending to be "all good with it." In either case he does not need to spend 25 to life for his actions. He can spend the next three years in juvie instead, hopefully coming out a better man.
    He was an accessory, and she damn sure would get prosecuted. It's called "aiding and abetting".

  9. #769
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,598
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Good points. However, if an examination of the 15 year-old were to determine that he is an incorrigible sociopath who is not going to improve with age, IMO, he should be tried as an adult, sentenced as an adult, and executed when he attains the age of 21. (I don't believe in executing criminals until they are old enough to legally consume alcoholic beverages.)
    Well, he does have some kind of prior record. If this prior record is for serious violence then perhaps I'd go along with his being tried as an adult. Primarily because such a record might support the contention that he had the capability of committing the crime himself had he been in possession of the weapon.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  10. #770
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,598
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    What's scary is that you accept this one-size-fits-all view of the law.
    Wow. One size fits all? Where did you get that impression? Did I not state that I had no problem with the 16 yo shooter being tried as an adult? Did I not state that I had no problem with the 17 yo driver being tried as an adult? Did I not point out that trying juvenile's as adults is allowed when the crime commited by the juvenile was considered heinous enough to warrant it?

    So just because I have an objection to a 15 yo "accessory" being charged with first degree murder and tried as an adult when he did nothing more than "ride along" I am expressing a "one-size fits all" position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    He was an accessory, and she damn sure would get prosecuted. It's called "aiding and abetting".
    As I stated the letter of the law would agree, but most prosecutor's would not prosecute the grandmother unless she did something more directly related to the crime like help dispose of the weapon knowing it was used to commit the crime.

    In any case, I am not so "absolute" about this issue as I know you are. I'd like to see some prison reform as I indicated in my Prison Reform thread before we just keep packing people off to prison only to have them come back out worse than they went in. This is especially true of children and juveniles who have the chance to be salvaged. I'm not sure if this 15 yo is one who can, because I don't know enough about his prior record. Until something changes I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

Page 77 of 114 FirstFirst ... 2767757677787987 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •