View Poll Results: Should the 15 and 16 year old also be tried as adults

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  • yes and throw away the key

    89 89.00%
  • no, they deserve a second chance

    11 11.00%
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Thread: Should these teens be tried as adults

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How do you know the "bored" murderer isn't suffering from a mental illness? Simple answer, you don't.
    Alcoholism is a disease. If I knock back a fifth of Beam, rape you and beat you half to death, should I be able to deflect blame onto the bottle?

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How do you know the "bored" murderer isn't suffering from a mental illness? Simple answer, you don't.
    Now you're resorting to cheap jailhouse lawyer tactics. How do you *know* anything?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  3. #753
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How do you know the "bored" murderer isn't suffering from a mental illness? Simple answer, you don't.
    I would argue that anyone who intentionally murders another human being for no reason is suffering from a mental illness. that still doesn't absolve them or make it OK not to punish them severely for their crime.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'll admit that maybe "never" was an exaggeration, but only in cases of the most heinous of crimes should teens be charged as adults. I also clearly stated earlier in the thread that I felt something adjustments need to made to the juvenile system for such cases.
    murder is the most heinous of crimes......
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I would argue that anyone who intentionally murders another human being for no reason is suffering from a mental illness. that still doesn't absolve them or make it OK not to punish them severely for their crime.
    It doesn't matter. Her defense wouldn't fly. She'd have to argue diminished capacity, which she couldn't. Mens rea clearly exists in this case. Once they admit to saying they want to do something "just for kicks", they negate the argument immediately.

    I wish Aderleth was here for this.

  6. #756
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I agree that he shouldn't be tried for murder, especially if we know proof-positive who the trigger man is. I disagree about trying as a juvenile. You simply cannot try kids over a certain age as juveniles for violent crimes because justice is not done. If you have a juvenile record, once you hit 18 you're as clean as fresh snow - record expunged/sealed, instantly free, no strikes. Now if you're picking pockets, swiping someone's TV, throwing rocks through someone's windows - that's one thing. However, if you try a 17 year old for murder as a juvenile, he serves less than a year in juvenile detention, then is set free with no record. To say that it's a miscarriage of justice would be a massive understatement.

    People who can't see why teens are tried as adults for violent crimes are beyond ignorant of the law.
    Well, while I agree with much of your statement, there are some problems with it.

    The point of trying a teenager in juvenile court is to allow for rehabilitation efforts that society does not think would work for an adult. Clearing a juvenile record by “sealing” it for crimes prior to 18 is merely another step in giving a “protected class” a better chance to reintegrate into society.

    Part of the reason we do this is because we recognize that teens are more impulsive than adults. That is part of the dynamic of youthful socialization. The youngest in any teenaged group typically has the most to prove to his peers, and is therefore the easiest to induce to wrongful action. Compliance is based on the drive to prove one's worth in the eyes of his watching peers, with little consideration given to the crime they are “daring” him to do.

    However, in adult crimes we presume that an adult has more impulse control and is expected to have either carefully considered the pros and cons of a planned crime, or is at least "old enough to know better" when he commits a crime of opportunity.

    We still allow trial as an adult for a juvenile when we consider the crime committed especially heinous such that youth is no excuse. That’s why I have no objection to the 16 yo shooter and 17 yo driver being tried as adults. However, until I know more about the 15 yo’s priors I’d hesitate to throw him into adult prison for going along with the pack and just “being there.” I’ll reserve judgment until after I learn more about why he was facing probation.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  7. #757
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    How quickly you admit that the gov't has rediculously lax personnel policies, yet the gov't (or public) would never permit private control of the release of prisoners given "indefinite" sentences.
    I don't see why not. There are already privately run prisons in the US, I don't see how this would be much different. I do think that some relatively strict oversight would be necessary though.
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    The point of trying a teenager in juvenile court is to allow for rehabilitation efforts that society does not think would work for an adult. Clearing a juvenile record by “sealing” it for crimes prior to 18 is merely another step in giving a “protected class” a better chance to reintegrate into society.
    Violent criminals are a "protected class" now? Really? Well hell, guess I can officially throw away any hope of this country ever being a meritocracy.

    Part of the reason we do this is because we recognize that teens are more impulsive than adults. That is part of the dynamic of youthful socialization. The youngest in any teenaged group typically has the most to prove to his peers, and is therefore the easiest to induce to wrongful action. Compliance is based on the drive to prove one's worth in the eyes of his watching peers, with little consideration given to the crime they are “daring” him to do.

    However, in adult crimes we presume that an adult has more impulse control and is expected to have either carefully considered the pros and cons of a planned crime, or is at least "old enough to know better" when he commits a crime of opportunity.

    We still allow trial as an adult for a juvenile when we consider the crime committed especially heinous such that youth is no excuse. That’s why I have no objection to the 16 yo shooter and 17 yo driver being tried as adults. However, until I know more about the 15 yo’s priors I’d hesitate to throw him into adult prison for going along with the pack and just “being there.” I’ll reserve judgment until after I learn more about why he was facing probation.
    If someone is a sheep at 15 for something as sadistic as this, I don't think it's going to get much better for them. The ability to understand murder as a cognitive is already developed at this stage, as is the concept of right and wrong. He did this crime of his own volition, so the concept of "peer pressure" is lost.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Violent criminals are a "protected class" now? Really? Well hell, guess I can officially throw away any hope of this country ever being a meritocracy.
    Oh please Gipper, you are not that obtuse. I find many of your posts too entertaining as well as informed to think that. You know very well I am talking about the protected class of children, i.e. minors who have not reached the legally recognized aged of adulthood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    If someone is a sheep at 15 for something as sadistic as this, I don't think it's going to get much better for them. The ability to understand murder as a cognitive is already developed at this stage, as is the concept of right and wrong. He did this crime of his own volition, so the concept of "peer pressure" is lost.
    Then you must have forgotten what it was like to be a kid. I'm quite sure that at some point in your minority you played the "sheep" to older kids and/or adults you looked up to. It may have been displayed in other forms of bad behavior, hijinks, or whatever you choose to call it...but it likely occurred nonetheless.

    Did the particular kid we are talking about pull the trigger? NO. Did he control the vehicle they were in? NO. In there any evidence he did more than maybe support the "game?" Not yet. Could he have done done the deed if he had the gun? Possibly but we don't know, and not knowing means it is also possible he can be reformed. So again, until I find out more regarding his "priors" I'd say some time in juvie might be just the thing to cure him of his bad actions. If not, by the time he gets out he will be an adult and how to deal with that won't be much of an issue.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Was I the one saying that they can't be rehabilitated?
    Are your answers to those questions any different than his?

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