View Poll Results: Should the 15 and 16 year old also be tried as adults

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  • yes and throw away the key

    89 89.00%
  • no, they deserve a second chance

    11 11.00%
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Thread: Should these teens be tried as adults

  1. #591
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I'm not sure what part of "they won't be allowed out unless they are deemed to no longer be dangerous" you don't understand.

    What part of the recidivism rate do you not understand?

    Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Recidivism
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #592
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Who is making that decision and what are the consequences of an error in that judgement?
    It would probably be psychiatrists/psychologists mostly. They would probably be best equipped to judge whether someone was safe or still dangerous.

    And the consequences for making an error in judgment are that you put a criminal back on the street. But we do that all the time anyway.

    Like I pointed out earlier, with a recidivism rate of 60% right now, I really don't see how trying to judge whether someone has been rehabilitated before you let them out of prison could turn out any worse than what we already do.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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  3. #593
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Murder is the illegal killing of a person

    If its state sponsored its not illegal. If its not illegal it's not murder.
    It should be, and it is if it is a juvenile according to international law.

    The US Death Penalty and International Law: US Compliance with the Torture and Race Conventions | Death Penalty Information Center

    Juveniles

    Although the death penalty is generally tolerated under international law, the same cannot be said of the execution of juvenile offenders. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights requires that the death penalty only be imposed "for the most serious crimes," and never upon those who were under 18 years of age at the time of their crime.5 Virtually all the countries of the world have signed or ratified this important treaty, including most recently, China. However, the United States is the only country with an outstanding reservation to the Article forbidding the execution of juvenile offenders.

    Only seven other countries in the world are known to have carried out an execution of a juvenile in the last ten years6 and the U.S. may be the most flagrant violator with 3 more juvenile offenders executed just this year. Since 1976, there have been 12 executions of those who were under 18 at the time of their crime in the U.S., with 9 of the 12 occurring in the 1990s. Seventy-two additional juveniles are on death row awaiting execution. While some states and the federal law set 18 as the minimum age of eligibility for the death penalty, the majority of death penalty states allow 16 or 17 year-olds to receive this ultimate punishment.7And some government officials have been calling for a reduction of the minimum age, even to as low as 11.8

    It is because of this history and practice that the U.S. took a specific reservation to the Civil and Political Rights Covenant essentially exempting itself from the ban on juvenile executions. The U.S. has also taken a reservation to the Torture Convention, stating that we understand "international law does not prohibit the death penalty, and does not consider this convention to restrict or prohibit the United States from applying the death penalty consistent with the Fifth, Eighth and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution . . . ." In other words, what the U.S. considers to be lawful punishment under the Torture Convention is what the U.S. courts, not the world community, consider lawful.

    Reservations to treaties, including human rights agreements, are generally recognized in international law. However, reservations which contradict the "object and purpose" of the treaty are not allowed. Eleven countries formally protested the U.S.'s reservation to the Civil and Political Rights Convention regarding juvenile offenders, and the U.N. Committee on Human Rights has stated that such a reservation is invalid. The U.S. Senate responded to this challenge by threatening to withhold funds from U.S. participation in the work of the U.N. Committee on Human Rights.9

  4. #594
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    They will be deemed not dangerous in short order. The thinking among people like you, (bleeding heat liberals) is they were just stupid kids that didn't really know what they were doing so when they hit 21 or so you will say they are adults now and deserve a second shot at life.
    Completely incorrect.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What part of the recidivism rate do you not understand?

    Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Recidivism
    I understand recidivism just fine. That's what this is intended to prevent.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  6. #596
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I don't care if they do or not.

    They killed a man for no reason.

    They need to be kept away from civilized people for a long time.
    I never claimed that they didn't.

  7. #597
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    It would probably be psychiatrists/psychologists mostly. They would probably be best equipped to judge whether someone was safe or still dangerous.

    And the consequences for making an error in judgment are that you put a criminal back on the street. But we do that all the time anyway.

    Like I pointed out earlier, with a recidivism rate of 60% right now, I really don't see how trying to judge whether someone has been rehabilitated before you let them out of prison could turn out any worse than what we already do.
    If that "letting them out" is before completing their initally assigned sentence then it makes things a lot worse. As I have stated earlier, those doing the letting out early should share the consequences of any recidivism. Gambling with the safety of others is easy, but when it is your chips going into the pot, the decisions are likely to be far different.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    So the 17 year old should be tried as a juvenile and then pot him in a juvenile facitility for a couple of months then let him out?

    Maybe of he turns 18 during the process, they just send him home.

    Would that be right?
    Nope, I already acknowledged that to be a problem with the juvenile system and agreed with another poster about perhaps trying them as adults (when it's a murder), but making adjustments for them as juveniles. It's a complicated problem. I just think 15 years old is too young to be charged as an adult.

  9. #599
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I understand recidivism just fine. That's what this is intended to prevent.
    How? If sentences can only be shortened, then what is the "up side" other than morons proclaiming to have saved money?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Is execution by being shot in the back unsuspectingly cruel and unusual punishment?
    So you see the comparison then? Good. Thanks.

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