View Poll Results: Should the 15 and 16 year old also be tried as adults

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  • yes and throw away the key

    89 89.00%
  • no, they deserve a second chance

    11 11.00%
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Thread: Should these teens be tried as adults

  1. #1001
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Hmmmmm. That sounds like the tone of someone in the field. Are you?
    In the field of education. Yes. I deal with kids daily. 12-18 years of age. Mentally challenged to genius. I also studied early childhood education and a lot of psychology. I am not an expert but I know quite a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
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    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    No. The opinionated stuff is the stuff saying that it is OK or not OK to kill a kid based off of scientific evidence that is irrelevant to a crime. A crime is committed. People looking to give excuses to others use this evidence to make their point. I find it ridiculous. I also find the DP to be cruel and unusual ridiculous.
    These are important new scientific discoveries. Of course you can ignore them, but that doesn't make them any less valid. A person's state of brain development should certainly be taken into consideration when handing out such serious penalty. Handing down the death sentence should NEVER be taken lightly and any new data should be looked at. The SC obviously takes this new data very seriously.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post




    What you are talking about is a system of justice which looks only at the past,at what has happened and has no vision for the future.

    I believe that we can do better than that.
    Ok, then I guess we can increase the scope of the death penalty for habitual violent crimes.
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  4. #1004
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    These are important new scientific discoveries. Of course you can ignore them, but that doesn't make them any less valid. A person's state of brain development should certainly be taken into consideration when handing out such serious penalty. Handing down the death sentence should NEVER be taken lightly and any new data should be looked at. The SC obviously takes this new data very seriously.
    It barely passed with a 5-4 Decision. Almost half the Justices didn't take it that seriously... neither do I.
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    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    In the field of education. Yes. I deal with kids daily. 12-18 years of age. Mentally challenged to genius. I also studied early childhood education and a lot of psychology. I am not an expert but I know quite a bit.
    I have read this from several sources, I am not an expert but based on my experience with boys in this age range it seems to make sense.

    Scientists have identified a specific region of the brain called the amygdala which is responsible for instinctual reactions including fear and aggressive behavior. This region develops early. However, the frontal cortex, the area of the brain that controls reasoning and helps us think before we act, develops later. This part of the brain is still changing and maturing well into adulthood.

    Other specific changes in the brain during adolescence include a rapid increase in the connections between the brain cells and pruning (refinement) of brain pathways. Nerve cells develop myelin, an insulating layer which helps cells communicate. All these changes are essential for the development of coordinated thought, action, and behavior.

    Changing Brains Mean that Adolescents Act Differently From Adults

    Pictures of the brain in action show that adolescentsí brains function differently than adults when decision-making and problem solving. Their actions are guided more by the amygdala and less by the frontal cortex. Research has also demonstrated that exposure to drugs and alcohol before birth, head trauma, or other types of brain injury can interfere with normal brain development during adolescence.

    Based on the stage of their brain development, adolescents are more likely to:

    act on impulse
    misread or misinterpret social cues and emotions
    get into accidents of all kinds
    get involved in fights
    engage in dangerous or risky behavior
    Adolescents are less likely to:

    think before they act
    pause to consider the potential consequences of their actions
    modify their dangerous or inappropriate behaviors

    From this source: The Teen Brain: Behavior, Problem Solving, and Decision Making

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I have read this from several sources, I am not an expert but based on my experience with boys in this age range it seems to make sense.

    Scientists have identified a specific region of the brain called the amygdala which is responsible for instinctual reactions including fear and aggressive behavior. This region develops early. However, the frontal cortex, the area of the brain that controls reasoning and helps us think before we act, develops later. This part of the brain is still changing and maturing well into adulthood.

    Other specific changes in the brain during adolescence include a rapid increase in the connections between the brain cells and pruning (refinement) of brain pathways. Nerve cells develop myelin, an insulating layer which helps cells communicate. All these changes are essential for the development of coordinated thought, action, and behavior.

    Changing Brains Mean that Adolescents Act Differently From Adults

    Pictures of the brain in action show that adolescents’ brains function differently than adults when decision-making and problem solving. Their actions are guided more by the amygdala and less by the frontal cortex. Research has also demonstrated that exposure to drugs and alcohol before birth, head trauma, or other types of brain injury can interfere with normal brain development during adolescence.

    Based on the stage of their brain development, adolescents are more likely to:

    act on impulse
    misread or misinterpret social cues and emotions
    get into accidents of all kinds
    get involved in fights
    engage in dangerous or risky behavior
    Adolescents are less likely to:

    think before they act
    pause to consider the potential consequences of their actions
    modify their dangerous or inappropriate behaviors

    From this source: The Teen Brain: Behavior, Problem Solving, and Decision Making
    I have been discussing this with Chris and about how this teen that shot the Aussie does not fall under most of that list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  7. #1007
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I have been discussing this with Chris and about how this teen that shot the Aussie does not fall under most of that list.
    Awww, I thought you were discussing the 15yr in the Washington State Case

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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I have been discussing this with Chris and about how this teen that shot the Aussie does not fall under most of that list.
    So looking back over your post, if I may just interject myself into your conversation, it appears you think they should be tried as adults. Is that the case?

  9. #1009
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    So looking back over your post, if I may just interject myself into your conversation, it appears you think they should be tried as adults. Is that the case?
    In this case, yes. Based off of what I know. It may turn out that some evidence pops up that changes my mind, but I doubt that will happen. As an adult and facing the DP as well.

    Awww, I thought you were discussing the 15yr in the Washington State Case
    Isn't this thread about the Aussie guy and the teen that shot him? About the two others being tried as well? Maybe I am debating the wrong thing...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  10. #1010
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    Re: Should these teens be tried as adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't believe in the death penalty for anyone, in any circumstances.
    Point taken. You are opposed to the death penalty PERIOD. If you are opposed to it in all cases arguing against the death penalty for these three for specific reasons is begging the question since you should have a general reason, argument against the death penalty.

    I also don't believe in mandatory sentencing at all. Either you trust your judiciary to take the right decision on the basis of the detailed assessment of each individual case, or you dispense with them altogether and hand over your judicial system entirely to politicians and their agenda-driven tariffs.
    Do you really mean that? Absolutely no minimum sentence for any crime? Do you also support no maximum sentence limit(death penalty excepted)?

    For the crime of theft: Whatever the judge says.

    For the crime of rape: Whatever the judge says.

    For the crime of murder: Whatever the judge says.


    I for one do not trust the Judaical branch to set proper sentences with that degree of latitude. Judges will impose their own opinions on what a proper sentence for reasons they pull out of their ass.

    Life without the possibility of parole seems like a populist sop to those who hanker after the death penalty being applied for currently non-capital offences, but offences that nevertheless stir up the frothing outrage of the media and the mob.
    Unless you are using the term populace for what is now known as progressive I would say the populist would support the death penalty in this case. If you are referring to the progressive movement they are opposed to LWP as well as the death penalty.


    Would I say that these kids have so crossed the line of morality that in 10, 20, or 40 years time there's absolutely no possibility that they could live law-abiding and useful lives as members of a community? No, I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say the opposite. I'd say that in a number of years time, properly assessed and with a regime aimed at rehabilitation as well as punishment and exclusion, there's every possibility (not necessarily likelihood, but it's possible) for someone to reform. Hence, a LWP tariff is counter-productive.
    I do not think that brainwashing will become advanced enough in the near or intermediate future to do this. And for them it would require neural engineering to do so. And I can think of the many uses such engineering would be put to; one would be as re-educating people who think Wrong Thoughts.


    With these boys, only one of whom thought it such a good idea to kill someone that he actually pulled the trigger, despite the fact that there was more than one weapon in the car, to say that there's zero possibility of any of them ever being able to live normal lives is a condemnation of the Oklahoma penal system as much as it is of their supposedly incorrigible nature.
    It sucks to do the time when you done the crime. And with the penal system in Oklahoma if I had my way there would be more guards and the prison population would be strictly monitored.
    There does seem to be a train of thought running through many of these crime-related threads on DP that assumes that the only thing you can expect of the penal system is to prevent offenders and the general public from ever encountering one another again. That there are two types of people, crims and non-crims and that there's no redemption whereby the latter can return to being the former have once stepped across a line. I don't buy that.
    For crimes less than murder, rape and child molesters yes they might be able to rejoin society but in this particular case of Murder One. No they will have to be removed permanently.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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