Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religion

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

maquiscat said:

Where are you getting that argument from?


Part of religion is a spirituality. All religions have a spirituality but not everyone with a spirituality has a religion.


While I've heard this a few times, most of what I hear in reguards to atheism and religion, is the religious and evangelical like behavior of some athiest as they "preach" their non-belief mentality. I personally find it funny as they try to convince people against religion with a fervor passing that of many of the religious.

I'm going to disagree with you that there is no observable proof and say that more accurately that there is no reproducable proof. i.e. there is no proof that is anything more than eyewitness, at least when you don't automatically accept the premise that God (whichever you might choose) is behind everything.

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The argument is ridiculous...and nothing short of a troll/bait/flame thread.

Not sure how "all" other atheist deal with their atheism, but as an atheist and from my observations...I can only tell you that whoever "preached their atheism with the goal of converting someone" was indeed a very immature or naive atheist.

Most atheists...as I've stated a number of times now since these ridiculous threads have raised their ugly heads...gods simply don't compute in the minds of atheists. There is nothing to ponder, consider or otherwise dwell on any form of entities, which are supernatural.

What I do grasp is that some theist try to incorporate the word "belief" as in "absence of belief" or "lack of belief" as a BELIEF in and of itself. NONSENSE.

Once again...

Atheists don't have to avoid having any conscious thoughts or need to ponder the existences of supernatural deities such as gods, ghosts, devils, demons, etc...because THEY DON'T EXIST IN OUR MINDS.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

The word "belief" has been twisted beyond all recognition. It does not mean any opinion. It does not mean any theological opinion. It means trust. Religious belief is nothing more than trusting your parents and preachers when they tell you about whatever they're telling you. That's all it is. Not trusting those people, because they are not trustworthy and the things they say are nonsense, is not a belief.

Also "preaching" atheists are not preaching in any religious sort of way. They're concerned with the political and social ramifications of religions exercising power. None of us would care about attacking anyone's religious ideas if they could leave others well enough alone.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Arcana XV said:

This idea that atheism is a religion comes from certain theists who insist on putting a label they're familiar with on a philosophy that is completely alien to them. If it makes them feel better, who cares? I'm comfortable with my lack of belief. Let them call it whatever they want. It changes nothing to this fundamental aspect of my character.

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The real reason they do it, redefining words like "religion" and "faith", among others, is so that when people get on them for believing ridiculous things, they can turn around and say "see? *EVERYONE* does it so you can't criticize us!" It's fundamentally dishonest, but hey, it's religion.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

grip said:

I've noticed two distinct differences in atheists. One version seems to state the obvious that there's no observable proof of a supreme being and the other seems angry at anyone who believes different. Sort of the polar opposite of bible thumpers.

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I think you're probably mistaking the intent. It's not that anyone is angry at people who believe differently, they're angry at people who believe utterly stupid things for which there is no evidence, and their absurd beliefs are harming the advancement of the human species. It has nothing to do with believing something different, but in believing something absurdly false.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

grip said:

I agree it's completely obnoxious to tell anyone what to believe, one way or the other. Even if there was readily available proof for everyone that there was a supreme being it wouldn't necessarily make you believe that Being was wishing you benevolence. I think how you live your life is a greater testimony towards what you believe than any worshiping, mouth service or plethora of good deeds.

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Um... no it's not. That's ridiculous. That's like saying it's obnoxious to tell school children that believing 1+1=5 is wrong. Of course it's not. There is a reality that we all share. You are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Removable Mind said:

The argument is ridiculous...and nothing short of a troll/bait/flame thread.

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Which argument? I asked a single question and made 3 different points. Also, as I have been told before and have seen others told by moderators, if you believe something is trolling or flame baiting, then report it. Don't mention it in the thread. IMHO doing so is self fulling in and of itself.

Not sure how "all" other atheist deal with their atheism, but as an atheist and from my observations...I can only tell you that whoever "preached their atheism with the goal of converting someone" was indeed a very immature or naive atheist.

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The same can be said about most religious people. Simply because there is a vocal visible minority of a given group that acts in a certain way does not mean the rest of the group is also that way. I've noted as such that "religious" athiests are indeed a minoroty within the athiest group over all. That said, when you argue and reason with a person of religious conviction on how they are wrong and such then you are indeed trying to "convert" them into your way of thinking. It is really no different, although different methods may be used, from a religious person trying to convert a non-religious person or one of a different religion.

Most atheists...as I've stated a number of times now since these ridiculous threads have raised their ugly heads...gods simply don't compute in the minds of atheists. There is nothing to ponder, consider or otherwise dwell on any form of entities, which are supernatural.

What I do grasp is that some theist try to incorporate the word "belief" as in "absence of belief" or "lack of belief" as a BELIEF in and of itself. NONSENSE.

Once again...

Atheists don't have to avoid having any conscious thoughts or need to ponder the existences of supernatural deities such as gods, ghosts, devils, demons, etc...because THEY DON'T EXIST IN OUR MINDS.

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A lack of belief and disbelief can only result from a lack of knowledge for the potential for something. A disbelief is simply a belief that the subject in question does not exist or inthe validity of that subject. It is just as easy to argue that religious people have a disbelief in the non-existence of their diety. Now this is all philosophical in nature and thus open to various opinions, but the point is still a logical conclusion.

Whether or not there is any concisous thought on the matter it is still something that one has to consider. Based upon everything you've known and learned, you instantly make the decision that God cannot be real, but in the end you have no evidence of such (any more than a religious person has evidence of their diety's existance). You have a belief. The only time one does not have to consider the idea of whether or not a diety exists is if they have never been exposed to the idea of a diety. Once exposed then the subject has to be considered, consciously or subconsciously.

Paschendale said:

Also "preaching" atheists are not preaching in any religious sort of way. They're concerned with the political and social ramifications of religions exercising power. None of us would care about attacking anyone's religious ideas if they could leave others well enough alone.

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I'm just going to say that you simply have not encountered these types of athiests then. I think one of my most...interesting encounters was at a pagan pride event. I got to see not only the Christians come out to try to "save" the pagans, but some athiests as well to try to "save" both other groups from their "Idiocy" (one of the athiests' word). Their methods were pretty much every bit of "preaching" as were the Christians and even some of the pagans. I will agree that majority of athiest are as you noted in the final sentence, but there are athiest out there on a mission to end all religion.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Cephus said:

The real reason they do it, redefining words like "religion" and "faith", among others, is so that when people get on them for believing ridiculous things, they can turn around and say "see? *EVERYONE* does it so you can't criticize us!" It's fundamentally dishonest, but hey, it's religion.

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Like I said. Utter intellectual laziness. I suspect there's also an underlying feeling of insecurity too. If their faith was strong, they wouldn't feel so threatened by the people who lack it.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

maquiscat said:

While I've heard this a few times, most of what I hear in reguards to atheism and religion, is the religious and evangelical like behavior of some athiest as they "preach" their non-belief mentality. I personally find it funny as they try to convince people against religion with a fervor passing that of many of the religious.

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While I do agree that certain atheists can be obnoxious, the reason they "preach" the way they do is similar to the way scientists "preached" that the earth was round even before there was actual irrefutable evidence of such. It's not a need to convince people against religion, it's a need to pass on what we see as patently obvious.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Removable Mind said:

Atheists don't have to avoid having any conscious thoughts or need to ponder the existences of supernatural deities such as gods, ghosts, devils, demons, etc...because THEY DON'T EXIST IN OUR MINDS.

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I beg to differ. I may not believe in gods, but I do ponder the existence of ghosts quite a bit. While I'm sure there's a logical explanation for some of the things I've seen, right now there is no valid theory to explain any of it. So, I do ponder....

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Arcana XV said:

While I do agree that certain atheists can be obnoxious, the reason they "preach" the way they do is similar to the way scientists "preached" that the earth was round even before there was actual irrefutable evidence of such. It's not a need to convince people against religion, it's a need to pass on what we see as patently obvious.

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First off thank you for phrasing it that way. To me that shows you acknowledge that you could be wrong in your standing as much as I also note that I could be wrong in my beliefs as a Christian. If we could all manage to agree (fat chance. I'll settle for many here though) that there is no proof beyond an individual level one way or the other, we'd all get along so much better.

FWIW, I do seperate out the simply passionate from those whom I classify "evangelical athiests". I've seen people on other topics get all "religious" about them too. While they have their roots in religion, I would say that religious and evangelical are words that have evolved to describe certain types of behaviors regardless of the topic they are applied to.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

maquiscat said:

First off thank you for phrasing it that way. To me that shows you acknowledge that you could be wrong in your standing as much as I also note that I could be wrong in my beliefs as a Christian. If we could all manage to agree (fat chance. I'll settle for many here though) that there is no proof beyond an individual level one way or the other, we'd all get along so much better.

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No argument, there.

FWIW, I do seperate out the simply passionate from those whom I classify "evangelical athiests". I've seen people on other topics get all "religious" about them too. While they have their roots in religion, I would say that religious and evangelical are words that have evolved to describe certain types of behaviors regardless of the topic they are applied to.

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I don't mind people using the words "religious" or "evangelical" as a metaphor. The way it's used when we say "I watch Dexter or The Walking Dead religiously." Or "He's so vocal about his atheism, it borders on evangelism". But using the noun "religion" to describe something that is pretty much its opposite is just making stuff up. The OP is right, if we go that lazy route, anything can be labeled a religion and the word has no real meaning anymore.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

arcana xv said:

i beg to differ. I may not believe in gods, but i do ponder the existence of ghosts quite a bit. While i'm sure there's a logical explanation for some of the things i've seen, right now there is no valid theory to explain any of it. So, i do ponder....

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stop it!

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

maquiscat said:

Which argument? I asked a single question and made 3 different points. Also, as I have been told before and have seen others told by moderators, if you believe something is trolling or flame baiting, then report it. Don't mention it in the thread. IMHO doing so is self fulling in and of itself.



The same can be said about most religious people. Simply because there is a vocal visible minority of a given group that acts in a certain way does not mean the rest of the group is also that way. I've noted as such that "religious" athiests are indeed a minoroty within the athiest group over all. That said, when you argue and reason with a person of religious conviction on how they are wrong and such then you are indeed trying to "convert" them into your way of thinking. It is really no different, although different methods may be used, from a religious person trying to convert a non-religious person or one of a different religion.



A lack of belief and disbelief can only result from a lack of knowledge for the potential for something. A disbelief is simply a belief that the subject in question does not exist or inthe validity of that subject. It is just as easy to argue that religious people have a disbelief in the non-existence of their diety. Now this is all philosophical in nature and thus open to various opinions, but the point is still a logical conclusion.

Whether or not there is any concisous thought on the matter it is still something that one has to consider. Based upon everything you've known and learned, you instantly make the decision that God cannot be real, but in the end you have no evidence of such (any more than a religious person has evidence of their diety's existance). You have a belief. The only time one does not have to consider the idea of whether or not a diety exists is if they have never been exposed to the idea of a diety. Once exposed then the subject has to be considered, consciously or subconsciously.



I'm just going to say that you simply have not encountered these types of athiests then. I think one of my most...interesting encounters was at a pagan pride event. I got to see not only the Christians come out to try to "save" the pagans, but some athiests as well to try to "save" both other groups from their "Idiocy" (one of the athiests' word). Their methods were pretty much every bit of "preaching" as were the Christians and even some of the pagans. I will agree that majority of athiest are as you noted in the final sentence, but there are athiest out there on a mission to end all religion.

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Uhhhhh...? You spent a lot of typing energy and in the end...meh! Look if you subscribe to some pie in the sky...good on you. You rambled on and on and on...and said absolutely nothing of any substance.

And psssssssssssst...you don't live inside the minds of all atheist to know what they do or don't ponder.

Thanks for a brush up on the rules about trolling and baiting and flaming. When someone opens a thread with a claim...please...try to have some knowledge about the topic.

By the way...if all religions did come to an end...boo hoo.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Grendel said:

The latter probably comes mostly from growing up with bible thumpers. I grew up in the Bible Belt, in a city with several very large, very active, very fundamentalist Southern Baptist congregations. They witness everywhere. You can't make it from your car to the curb without some little jerk on your back, and they'll scream and rant and just ooze derision and contempt if you say, "No thank you, I'm not a Christian". After taking it a few times, you start turning around and telling them to **** off.

The constant barrage of hostility from those people leave others who grew up in that kind of an environment convinced at all Christians are that way. After all, all the ones they've ever seen are.

I was very hostile and aggressive towards people evangelizing for that reason, until I moved out of the Bible Belt and found a different breed of religious people. Basically, hate breeds hate, and courtesy breeds courtesy.

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Yeah, I know how annoying religious people are with their insistence on converting non believers. But they are at most annoying and as easy for me to rebuff as a pesky sales person. Much of the latent anger is probably a result of adults dragging you to church as a kid and cramming the "hellfire and brimstone" version down your throat. Then you learn as an adult how many have used religion as an excuse for War and other atrocities.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Cephus said:

I think you're probably mistaking the intent. It's not that anyone is angry at people who believe differently, they're angry at people who believe utterly stupid things for which there is no evidence, and their absurd beliefs are harming the advancement of the human species. It has nothing to do with believing something different, but in believing something absurdly false.

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Cephus said:

Um... no it's not. That's ridiculous. That's like saying it's obnoxious to tell school children that believing 1+1=5 is wrong. Of course it's not. There is a reality that we all share. You are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

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You're probably one of the most religious people I know because you believe solely in yourself and life, which is where and what God is. Why do you think He wants no image, name or designation of origin beyond you?

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

maquiscat said:

I'm just going to say that you simply have not encountered these types of athiests then. I think one of my most...interesting encounters was at a pagan pride event. I got to see not only the Christians come out to try to "save" the pagans, but some athiests as well to try to "save" both other groups from their "Idiocy" (one of the athiests' word). Their methods were pretty much every bit of "preaching" as were the Christians and even some of the pagans. I will agree that majority of athiest are as you noted in the final sentence, but there are athiest out there on a mission to end all religion.

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No, I have not. Nor has any other atheist I know. And we actually seek out each other's company. Neither has anyone ever produced credible documentation of any such occurrence. People who oppose atheism are always quick to come up with anecdotes about proselytizing atheists who preach the exact same way as the religious. Yet actual atheists condemn such tactics all the time. There is never documentation of a planned event to preach the gospel of atheism (mainly because there is no gospel of atheism) or a video or recording of such an occurrence taking place. Now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not simply making it up, but I imagine that you are confusing mere discussion or debate with preaching. Discussions happen in the public square. If you have actual documentation of the event you're speaking up, rather than merely this brief summary and precious few details, I'd like to see it.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

I believe that (a) Reality is real, and (b) My own modest sensory organs and my undeniably limited brain are adequate tools for exploring that "Real Reality".

Other than that, I am a 100% "atheist" and a certified "rationalist". But make no mistake: (a) and (b) are absolutely "leaps of faith".

My intuition tells me to stop right there - no more fantasies or "leaps". But...if someone else moves one or two conjectures further - how do we really know he is more in error than we are?

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Arcana XV said:

Like I said. Utter intellectual laziness. I suspect there's also an underlying feeling of insecurity too. If their faith was strong, they wouldn't feel so threatened by the people who lack it.

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It's not intellectual laziness, it's dishonesty, through and through. You're probably right, there's a lot of insecurity mixed in, they're desperate to feel like their beliefs are important, when it's revealed that they're laughable, they get upset.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

grip said:

You're probably one of the most religious people I know because you believe solely in yourself and life, which is where and what God is. Why do you think He wants no image, name or designation of origin beyond you?

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:screwy I'm going to back away slowly right now...

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Cephus said:

:screwy I'm going to back away slowly right now...

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LOL! I was wondering how you were gonna react to this particular gem. :lol:

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Arcana XV said:

LOL! I was wondering how you were gonna react to this particular gem. :lol:

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Worse yet, theists actually think that what he said makes any of sense at all. :roll:

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Perhaps it is just my science backgroundand that makes a certain binomial process natural to me, but I see religion as a subset of ideology in general -- much as I do political views,and especially so when such views involve actual tenets such as those associated with a particular religion or political platform.

Rejecting religious belief is hardly a religion, even if silly people try to claim it is. Belief without reason is simply dogmatism, and just because dogmatic people wish to cast reason as something akin to their superstition, it really isn't. It's just that the process is so alien to their nature, they don't recognise the stuff. Now, it's not as if religion precludes reason at all, asthereare somevery reasonable religious poele-- it's more a matter of those accepting religion unquestioningly projecting a similar nature upon others.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Cephus said:

Worse yet, theists actually think that what he said makes any of sense at all. :roll:

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I does make sense, though. Some religions believe that god is not an entity that created everything, but that god is all creation. It's in everything. Like the atom, only more awesome.

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

Arcana XV said:

I does make sense, though. Some religions believe that god is not an entity that created everything, but that god is all creation. It's in everything. Like the atom, only more awesome.

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True, but you have to remember you're talking about people who believe in imaginary friends. Claiming that an imaginary friend is going to harm your opponent for not believing in the imaginary friend is pointless. It's like saying Skippy the Invisible Unicorn is going to gore you with his horn if you don't have faith in Skippy the Invisible Unicorn. Yeah, that's really scary! :roll:

Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

grip said:

Yeah, I know how annoying religious people are with their insistence on converting non believers. But they are at most annoying and as easy for me to rebuff as a pesky sales person.

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Do you live in an area where you get accosted by them almost daily? It gets really, really irritating after a couple of decades.