View Poll Results: any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religion

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Thread: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religion

  1. #31
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    The argument is ridiculous...and nothing short of a troll/bait/flame thread.
    Which argument? I asked a single question and made 3 different points. Also, as I have been told before and have seen others told by moderators, if you believe something is trolling or flame baiting, then report it. Don't mention it in the thread. IMHO doing so is self fulling in and of itself.

    Not sure how "all" other atheist deal with their atheism, but as an atheist and from my observations...I can only tell you that whoever "preached their atheism with the goal of converting someone" was indeed a very immature or naive atheist.
    The same can be said about most religious people. Simply because there is a vocal visible minority of a given group that acts in a certain way does not mean the rest of the group is also that way. I've noted as such that "religious" athiests are indeed a minoroty within the athiest group over all. That said, when you argue and reason with a person of religious conviction on how they are wrong and such then you are indeed trying to "convert" them into your way of thinking. It is really no different, although different methods may be used, from a religious person trying to convert a non-religious person or one of a different religion.

    Most atheists...as I've stated a number of times now since these ridiculous threads have raised their ugly heads...gods simply don't compute in the minds of atheists. There is nothing to ponder, consider or otherwise dwell on any form of entities, which are supernatural.

    What I do grasp is that some theist try to incorporate the word "belief" as in "absence of belief" or "lack of belief" as a BELIEF in and of itself. NONSENSE.

    Once again...

    Atheists don't have to avoid having any conscious thoughts or need to ponder the existences of supernatural deities such as gods, ghosts, devils, demons, etc...because THEY DON'T EXIST IN OUR MINDS.
    A lack of belief and disbelief can only result from a lack of knowledge for the potential for something. A disbelief is simply a belief that the subject in question does not exist or inthe validity of that subject. It is just as easy to argue that religious people have a disbelief in the non-existence of their diety. Now this is all philosophical in nature and thus open to various opinions, but the point is still a logical conclusion.

    Whether or not there is any concisous thought on the matter it is still something that one has to consider. Based upon everything you've known and learned, you instantly make the decision that God cannot be real, but in the end you have no evidence of such (any more than a religious person has evidence of their diety's existance). You have a belief. The only time one does not have to consider the idea of whether or not a diety exists is if they have never been exposed to the idea of a diety. Once exposed then the subject has to be considered, consciously or subconsciously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Also "preaching" atheists are not preaching in any religious sort of way. They're concerned with the political and social ramifications of religions exercising power. None of us would care about attacking anyone's religious ideas if they could leave others well enough alone.
    I'm just going to say that you simply have not encountered these types of athiests then. I think one of my most...interesting encounters was at a pagan pride event. I got to see not only the Christians come out to try to "save" the pagans, but some athiests as well to try to "save" both other groups from their "Idiocy" (one of the athiests' word). Their methods were pretty much every bit of "preaching" as were the Christians and even some of the pagans. I will agree that majority of athiest are as you noted in the final sentence, but there are athiest out there on a mission to end all religion.

  2. #32
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The real reason they do it, redefining words like "religion" and "faith", among others, is so that when people get on them for believing ridiculous things, they can turn around and say "see? *EVERYONE* does it so you can't criticize us!" It's fundamentally dishonest, but hey, it's religion.
    Like I said. Utter intellectual laziness. I suspect there's also an underlying feeling of insecurity too. If their faith was strong, they wouldn't feel so threatened by the people who lack it.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  3. #33
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    While I've heard this a few times, most of what I hear in reguards to atheism and religion, is the religious and evangelical like behavior of some athiest as they "preach" their non-belief mentality. I personally find it funny as they try to convince people against religion with a fervor passing that of many of the religious.
    While I do agree that certain atheists can be obnoxious, the reason they "preach" the way they do is similar to the way scientists "preached" that the earth was round even before there was actual irrefutable evidence of such. It's not a need to convince people against religion, it's a need to pass on what we see as patently obvious.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  4. #34
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Atheists don't have to avoid having any conscious thoughts or need to ponder the existences of supernatural deities such as gods, ghosts, devils, demons, etc...because THEY DON'T EXIST IN OUR MINDS.
    I beg to differ. I may not believe in gods, but I do ponder the existence of ghosts quite a bit. While I'm sure there's a logical explanation for some of the things I've seen, right now there is no valid theory to explain any of it. So, I do ponder....
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  5. #35
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    While I do agree that certain atheists can be obnoxious, the reason they "preach" the way they do is similar to the way scientists "preached" that the earth was round even before there was actual irrefutable evidence of such. It's not a need to convince people against religion, it's a need to pass on what we see as patently obvious.
    First off thank you for phrasing it that way. To me that shows you acknowledge that you could be wrong in your standing as much as I also note that I could be wrong in my beliefs as a Christian. If we could all manage to agree (fat chance. I'll settle for many here though) that there is no proof beyond an individual level one way or the other, we'd all get along so much better.

    FWIW, I do seperate out the simply passionate from those whom I classify "evangelical athiests". I've seen people on other topics get all "religious" about them too. While they have their roots in religion, I would say that religious and evangelical are words that have evolved to describe certain types of behaviors regardless of the topic they are applied to.

  6. #36
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    First off thank you for phrasing it that way. To me that shows you acknowledge that you could be wrong in your standing as much as I also note that I could be wrong in my beliefs as a Christian. If we could all manage to agree (fat chance. I'll settle for many here though) that there is no proof beyond an individual level one way or the other, we'd all get along so much better.
    No argument, there.

    FWIW, I do seperate out the simply passionate from those whom I classify "evangelical athiests". I've seen people on other topics get all "religious" about them too. While they have their roots in religion, I would say that religious and evangelical are words that have evolved to describe certain types of behaviors regardless of the topic they are applied to.
    I don't mind people using the words "religious" or "evangelical" as a metaphor. The way it's used when we say "I watch Dexter or The Walking Dead religiously." Or "He's so vocal about his atheism, it borders on evangelism". But using the noun "religion" to describe something that is pretty much its opposite is just making stuff up. The OP is right, if we go that lazy route, anything can be labeled a religion and the word has no real meaning anymore.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  7. #37
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by arcana xv View Post
    i beg to differ. I may not believe in gods, but i do ponder the existence of ghosts quite a bit. While i'm sure there's a logical explanation for some of the things i've seen, right now there is no valid theory to explain any of it. So, i do ponder....
    stop it!

  8. #38
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Which argument? I asked a single question and made 3 different points. Also, as I have been told before and have seen others told by moderators, if you believe something is trolling or flame baiting, then report it. Don't mention it in the thread. IMHO doing so is self fulling in and of itself.



    The same can be said about most religious people. Simply because there is a vocal visible minority of a given group that acts in a certain way does not mean the rest of the group is also that way. I've noted as such that "religious" athiests are indeed a minoroty within the athiest group over all. That said, when you argue and reason with a person of religious conviction on how they are wrong and such then you are indeed trying to "convert" them into your way of thinking. It is really no different, although different methods may be used, from a religious person trying to convert a non-religious person or one of a different religion.



    A lack of belief and disbelief can only result from a lack of knowledge for the potential for something. A disbelief is simply a belief that the subject in question does not exist or inthe validity of that subject. It is just as easy to argue that religious people have a disbelief in the non-existence of their diety. Now this is all philosophical in nature and thus open to various opinions, but the point is still a logical conclusion.

    Whether or not there is any concisous thought on the matter it is still something that one has to consider. Based upon everything you've known and learned, you instantly make the decision that God cannot be real, but in the end you have no evidence of such (any more than a religious person has evidence of their diety's existance). You have a belief. The only time one does not have to consider the idea of whether or not a diety exists is if they have never been exposed to the idea of a diety. Once exposed then the subject has to be considered, consciously or subconsciously.



    I'm just going to say that you simply have not encountered these types of athiests then. I think one of my most...interesting encounters was at a pagan pride event. I got to see not only the Christians come out to try to "save" the pagans, but some athiests as well to try to "save" both other groups from their "Idiocy" (one of the athiests' word). Their methods were pretty much every bit of "preaching" as were the Christians and even some of the pagans. I will agree that majority of athiest are as you noted in the final sentence, but there are athiest out there on a mission to end all religion.
    Uhhhhh...? You spent a lot of typing energy and in the end...meh! Look if you subscribe to some pie in the sky...good on you. You rambled on and on and on...and said absolutely nothing of any substance.

    And psssssssssssst...you don't live inside the minds of all atheist to know what they do or don't ponder.

    Thanks for a brush up on the rules about trolling and baiting and flaming. When someone opens a thread with a claim...please...try to have some knowledge about the topic.

    By the way...if all religions did come to an end...boo hoo.

  9. #39
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    The latter probably comes mostly from growing up with bible thumpers. I grew up in the Bible Belt, in a city with several very large, very active, very fundamentalist Southern Baptist congregations. They witness everywhere. You can't make it from your car to the curb without some little jerk on your back, and they'll scream and rant and just ooze derision and contempt if you say, "No thank you, I'm not a Christian". After taking it a few times, you start turning around and telling them to **** off.

    The constant barrage of hostility from those people leave others who grew up in that kind of an environment convinced at all Christians are that way. After all, all the ones they've ever seen are.

    I was very hostile and aggressive towards people evangelizing for that reason, until I moved out of the Bible Belt and found a different breed of religious people. Basically, hate breeds hate, and courtesy breeds courtesy.

    Yeah, I know how annoying religious people are with their insistence on converting non believers. But they are at most annoying and as easy for me to rebuff as a pesky sales person. Much of the latent anger is probably a result of adults dragging you to church as a kid and cramming the "hellfire and brimstone" version down your throat. Then you learn as an adult how many have used religion as an excuse for War and other atrocities.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #40
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    Re: Any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religi

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I think you're probably mistaking the intent. It's not that anyone is angry at people who believe differently, they're angry at people who believe utterly stupid things for which there is no evidence, and their absurd beliefs are harming the advancement of the human species. It has nothing to do with believing something different, but in believing something absurdly false.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Um... no it's not. That's ridiculous. That's like saying it's obnoxious to tell school children that believing 1+1=5 is wrong. Of course it's not. There is a reality that we all share. You are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.
    You're probably one of the most religious people I know because you believe solely in yourself and life, which is where and what God is. Why do you think He wants no image, name or designation of origin beyond you?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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