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Non consentual sex is not rape

Is non concentual sex always rape

  • Yes, non concensual sex is always rape

    Votes: 47 79.7%

  • No, non concensual sex is not always rape

    Votes: 12 20.3%
  • Total voters
    59
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

I think the issue here, at least for me, is the word "always".

Does it make logical and intelligent sense to assume that every person who makes a charge of rape against another person is always telling the truth? Beyond a reasonable doubt?
Always?

There is NEVER a time when somebody might have "consented" during the moment, only to change that story the next day, or a few days later?

Nobody ever lies about being a victim of rape?

Nobody is ever falsely accused of rape?

DNA test reverses 30-year-old rape conviction | theGrio

Man's rape conviction overturned after DNA testing : Wsj

Texas man's conviction overturned after 24 years - Los Angeles Times

Ex-Poly standout has rape and kidnapping conviction reversed

Tawana Brawley starts paying man she falsely accused of rape in 1987 - CNN.com

No means no. Period.
Unconscious does not mean yes. Absolutely.

However, I can foresee some situations where charging another human being with rape based on circumstances and situations might not be warranted.

Imagine being involved in a consensual one-night stand, and then two days later having the police arrest you for rape.
She says you raped her. You know you didn't.
How in hell's bells would you "prove" your innocence?

Her word against yours.

Are you automatically guilty just because she says you raped her?
 
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

And we wonder why known rape survivors don't take their case to court.
 
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

roguenuke said:
Story from the boat.

When I first got to the ship there was a female electrician in my berthing who had just been transferred from another carrier. She had been transferred for making a false rape accusation. She was a lesbian. Her and her girlfriend had a fight one day and she went to a bar where a bunch of the guys she works with on the ship hangout. She was flirting with one of those guys who eventually took her home. They had been drinking about the same amount and were tipsy but not really drunk. They had sex, but the next day, she made up with her girlfriend. She said the guy had raped her because she was too drunk to consent to sex. The other guys that were in the bar though swore that neither were really drunk and she was definitely enticing the guy for sex. During questioning (it hadn't left the department yet), she broke down and confessed that she had lied about it so that she wouldn't get into trouble with her girlfriend (as a nuke, unless something was officially in a record, DADT was detrimental to our manning so it was avoided if at all possible). This came directly from her. She told me this is what happened.

We had to have training just recently about sexual assault on top of our annual training. And I want to tell you it pisses me off when civilians criticize the military for our record on sexual assault or harassment when I am willing to bet we do better than the civilian world overall because in general, a guy accused of any sexual assault or sexual harassment is considered guilty until proven innocent (which disgusts me to no end). I was livid about this point in that training. It ticked me off when they said that people should suspend their belief that a person wouldn't do that. I consider testimony on people's character to be important. Are there some who would use their known good reputation to do bad things? Sure. But there are also a lot of guys who wouldn't do such things and who some women (or even other guys) may take advantage of the fact that the rules favor that very fact that character of the perpetrator is completely ignored when an accusation is made. This is why it scares me to have my husband go anywhere with women he works with alone. There simply is always that chance that one of those women may be the kind that tries to make a false accusation and his career would be ruined, even if it comes out as a false accusation.

Now, as a woman in the military as well, I know that most women really wouldn't make false accusations. But it only takes that one who would to ruin a career. The same could very well be true for college students, particularly those in such an influential college. Some of these girls could just have been shunned by the guy and want revenge. Maybe he was using her for a one night stand and she feels dirty. Or maybe they were both drunk and she regretted sleeping with him. Or maybe they really were taken advantage of. Those who are truly victimized I feel sorry for, but unfortunately, this is why we have to be cautious about what we do and who we hang out with. It is just as bad for the guy who is falsely accused and loses his dreams in life because of that accusation as it is for the woman who was raped. But just going off of the information given, it seems that these were definitely more likely to be cases of "he said, she said" drunken encounters.
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This makes me really wish I had considered JAG. I wouldn't have quit until she had enough charges stick to get her a DD and a blackball on every future resumé.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
So according to Yale university non consensual sex is not always rape. I guess I'm old fashioned but I kinda thought non consensual sex was the definition of rape.

Yale University has found six students guilty of 'non-consensual sex' in the past six months and not one of them has been expelled from the prestigious Ivy League college, according to an official report.
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Four of the perpetrators were given written reprimands after the victims reported the sexual assaults to staff, one student received probation and another was suspended for two semesters but will be free to return next year to graduate - with an Ivy League diploma.

Yale, which is based in New Haven, Connecticut, said it responded to a total of eight reports of sexual assault in the first half of 2013. The other two students were found not guilty of rape allegations, the school said.


Read more: Yale's sexual misconduct report does not mention rape instead referring to it as 'non-consensual sex' - a crime they punish with just a written reprimand | Mail Online
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I guess that it all depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is, eh?
 
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

earthworm said:
Good point
This is something that should be set and decided by a panel of 6 women and 4 men...
I doubt if any college is ran in this manner...it could even be 10 men...0.0 women...
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I agree that it should be decided by a jury. I'm not sure why it would need to be specifically made up of 6 women and 4 men though. The normal jury selection process should work fine.

earthworm said:
A man does not know what it feels like to be raped...he cannot possibly know..
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That's ridiculous. Men can be and have been raped as well.
 
Mr X said:
What?? non-consensual sex is the definition of rape. The two words mean exactly the same thing.
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I think it's too broad a term. All rape is non-consensual sex, but not all non-consensual sex is rape.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Define the difference.
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How about the kind where one person consents during the moment, but then the next day, or even days later decides to become a non-consenting participant.

Like sometimes happens when college kids party and stuff.
 
Dragonfly said:
How about the kind where one person consents during the moment, but then the next day, or even days later decides to become a non-consenting participant.

Like sometimes happens when college kids party and stuff.
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That is a different issue altogether. I am trying to find out how you can ever have real non consensual sex without it being rape.
 
I suppose it depends at what point it becomes non-consensual. If the woman does not consent before the act, then of course it's rape. If the woman changes her mind after the act, it's too late, it can't be rape. Once she says no, it stops. She can't decide later that she didn't really want it and expect to be supported.
 
Cephus said:
I suppose it depends at what point it becomes non-consensual. If the woman does not consent before the act, then of course it's rape. If the woman changes her mind after the act, it's too late, it can't be rape. Once she says no, it stops. She can't decide later that she didn't really want it and expect to be supported.
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Agree.

And if it's "rape", why wouldn't the victims immediately call 911 and get police involved plus have a full-on medical exam in an emergency room?

Why let campus security/college hold court and make decisions?
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Define the difference.
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I consider rape to be compelling someone to have sex through the use or the threat of force. The dictionary definition of rape.

I don't consider obtaining sex through drugging someone, or taking advantage of a drunk person, or through deception to be rape. Those things are wrong, and they're crimes, but they're not rape. They're different crimes.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Define the difference.
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If both parties are too drunk/high to give consent and yet they together have sex, maybe both waking up in the morning with a naked person next to them and cannot remember what went on [ I know I had periods of blackouts back when binge drinking in college ]... and so neither explicitly [ as can be determined in the aftermath] gave consent, would you consider both parties to have committed non consensual rape at that point?
 
molten_dragon said:
I consider rape to be compelling someone to have sex through the use or the threat of force. The dictionary definition of rape.

I don't consider obtaining sex through drugging someone, or taking advantage of a drunk person, or through deception to be rape. Those things are wrong, and they're crimes, but they're not rape. They're different crimes.
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That definition would not take into consideration statutory rape when both parties may be willing but one is not of age to give consent...but no use/threat of force came into play.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
That definition would not take into consideration statutory rape when both parties may be willing but one is not of age to give consent...but no use/threat of force came into play.
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Correct. Statutory rape isn't the same thing as rape. That's why it's called statutory rape and not just rape.
 
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

molten_dragon said:
I agree that it should be decided by a jury. I'm not sure why it would need to be specifically made up of 6 women and 4 men though. The normal jury selection process should work fine.



That's ridiculous. Men can be and have been raped as well.
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I think not.....
but, then I have never been in this situation.
And, I can imagine that its quite horrible.
The woman, being the smaller/weaker of the two, has a much rougher time when being raped....but, then, again, I do not know exactly what this is like....
I will, probably modify my position....as I am prone to do this.
 
herenow1 said:
As might often be the case when large amounts of alcohol and/or drugs might be involved

A woman lying is plausible, but 61 women telling the same lie? I think if there were that many ''complaints'' the math tells me that lying isn't a factor here, but the good ole boy system at work.
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Careful how you use "same lie". Having 61 women tell the same story about one particular incident is significantly different than 61 women each saying they were raped in 61 independent cases. In the latter case, the expected number of drunken rape allegations is linearly scaled by the number of drunk girls summed over the semester.

There have clearly been more than 61 kids with the same lie of "Mommy, I didn't eat no cookies."
 
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

roguenuke said:
Bull. Men are rape victims, even some having women rape them. This belief that men cannot be raped by a woman is just plain wrong. It can happen and does happen.
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A point, no doubt..
But, I'd say that 90% of rapes are doe by men - so-called men..
A real man loves the woman and rapes...NOT.
I have been in both places.
 
Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

Roguenuke's letter , a must read.
There is nothing like direct, personal experience..
 
Phys251 said:
Yes.



People cannot legally give consent when drunk. Nearly every rapist who has ever lived was a male.



Except, that's not how it tends to go down. Rape is a choice.
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This is where things get awfully tough.
Define "drunk"
impossible.
True rape is violent...there is no arising from a sleep and being confronted with a naked man...this is not a real rape , IMO.
 
molten_dragon said:
Correct. Statutory rape isn't the same thing as rape. That's why it's called statutory rape and not just rape.
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Statutory would be a form of rape, a subset of the broader term rape being contained within that broader term of rape... one could call it just "rape" without the qualifier because it is, indeed, rape. Rape without the force you implied is necessary for "rape".
 
Mathematician said:
Careful how you use "same lie". Having 61 women tell the same story about one particular incident is significantly different than 61 women each saying they were raped in 61 independent cases. In the latter case, the expected number of drunken rape allegations is linearly scaled by the number of drunk girls summed over the semester.

There have clearly been more than 61 kids with the same lie of "Mommy, I didn't eat no cookies."
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I agree with that and would also point out that there were 61 complaints, but not all of them have to be only from women. While the majority are probably complaints from females, there was no place where I saw a breakdown as to gender.
 
earthworm said:
This is where things get awfully tough.
Define "drunk"
impossible.
True rape is violent...there is no arising from a sleep and being confronted with a naked man...this is not a real rape , IMO.
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Actually, drunk is easy because the state has an objectively measurable and testable standard for what constitutes being drunk.
 
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