View Poll Results: Is non concentual sex always rape

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  • Yes, non concensual sex is always rape

    56 77.78%
  • No, non concensual sex is not always rape

    16 22.22%
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Thread: Non consentual sex is not rape

  1. #201
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Some states make a distinction between sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault ("rape" isn't the legal term anymore).
    So the word "rape" has become one of those not PC words?

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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, I am saying it from the perspective of common sense, experience, and knowledge.
    Do you not realize that this puts a serious damper on your argument?

    Why go to a non-legal authority if you can go to a legal one that will bring real charges against a person? Why involve someone who will only possibly punish them through their career if you could get them put in jail, which would take down their career anyway? Plus, I've had the training in the military. I know what is being taught. We are taught to assume the accused is guilty, to ignore any beliefs about how that person would never do such a thing. I'm willing to bet such training is also in colleges as well. In places such as schools and the military and even likely some businesses (but this may depend on the business and the person accused), an accused person is assumed guilty until proven innocent, and people know this. Whereas in our legal system, a person is assumed innocent until proven guilty. It is a lot harder to prove yourself innocent, especially given some of the things we know about these situations, than it is to prove someone else is guilty given those same set of circumstances. In a courtroom, a person needs more than a simple accusation and unreliable testimony in order to convict a person on such rape accusations.
    And why exactly are rapists rarely punished in a court of law? Did you ever consider that rape survivors have rights, too?

    I would encourage you to read this for investigation strategies of ruling out the highly unlikely, but entirely possible, chance of a false accusation. This notion that rape allegations all come down to "his word vs. hers" is simply false.
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  3. #203
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And that was about rapes reported to police, not sexual assaults/rapes reported in other fashions, which would most likely have a higher possibility of being false. Think about it. You want to get someone else in trouble but don't want to get yourself in trouble as well and you are in college. So you figure if you know of a time when you had sex with someone while you were drunk you can use that. It then becomes a he said/she said report. And with the way our colleges are working, in no small part due to media and just PC-ism, there would be an investigation by the campus which would require less evidence to prove that a rape happened than if it were reported to proper authorities, especially if the report is coming more than a couple of days after the incident.

    This is the sort of thing that happens in the military. There are women that take advantage of the fact that the military basically treats any accusation of rape as the guy is guilty, especially if he admits to having sex with the woman while she had been drinking at all, even if he had also been drinking. The police and/or DA would not likely have enough evidence to even bring such a case to trial, let alone convict the guy, but that isn't the case when it comes to punishment by an outside organization. Or, like that report that was done a couple of years ago, they compiled the number of women vets who were claiming sexual assault on VA benefits forms and used that as an indicator as to how many women in the military were being sexually assaulted. This is completely flawed. Those women are specifically looking for benefits and something like sexual assault can get them some benefits without providing any proof whatsoever that it happened. They didn't even have to have reported it while they were in, just claim it on the form.
    Little if any of this has any basis in facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You can believe who or what you want. I am pointing out that it is wrong to claim a false accusation statistic would be the same for non-legal reporting as it is for legal repoorting. There are different factors that come into play, including likelihood of being found "guilty" and facing punishment (which would be higher with non-legal reports).
    And again, strictly speaking from probabilities, I'd have to go with an organization that has countless man-hours of these kinds of investigations.
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  4. #204
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    You seem to be mounting a rational opposition to my views. The rest of you, please take note.

    Good questions. I'll use some logical deduction to attempt to answer them, but be advised that this may get a bit complicated.

    Let's start by defining terms to make sure we're all on the same page. Rape is the "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim" (FBI). Now right away, that last clause suggests that rape and non-consensual sex are one and the same. Are they?

    I will answer this in terms of set theory. A set is a well-defined collection of items or objects. For one set to be a subset of another, anything in the first set has to be in the second. For example, the set of all the different shades of blue is a subset of all the different colors out there. And a set is its own subset. Now by rule, if two sets are each others' subsets, then they are the same set.

    Still with me? OK good. Let's classify the set of all acts that qualify as rape as set R, and all acts that qualify as non-consensual sex as set N. Let's agree right now that R is a subset of N. If anyone disagrees with that, then either they don't understand what subsets are, or they don't understand what reality is. Now the big question that remains is whether N is a subset of R. If that occurs, then N = R, and we are done. But is it? Notice, we have not yet established a definition of what non-consensual sex is. Now, merely proving that all non-consensual sex is rape would prove that N = R, precluding this need. But this brings us right back to where we started.

    What is my position on whether N is a subset of R? I honestly don't know. I think it would make sense, but an interesting example--mutual drunk sex--was offered as a possible counterexample. So really, that's what we need to establish. It all comes down to examining that. Which, BTW, raises the question of what "consent" means--an entire discussion in its own right.
    Okay, now I follow you. I would argue that since there are situations which tend to indicate that all N is NOT a subset of R, they are not equivalent. Primarily because we don't have a good definition of N. Some people would say if the "victim" states it was non-consensual then it is rape. However, it has been found that in many cases a mere accusation will turn out to be false. The Duke Lacrosse team is the most famous recent example of this. So what would be the standard definition? I tend to apply the "immediate reaction" test; i.e. how soon after the act were the police notified and was there a rape kit conducted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    I think it was pretty clear that I was referring to the common-vernacular definition, not the DSM-IV definition. But you are technically correct.
    Granted. However, the common vernacular is often wrong and applying automatic labels is very detrimental in such cases. For example, many people think sexual activity with someone under the age of 18 is automatically pedophilia. It is not, since only 11 states have an age of sexual consent at 18. In 31 states and D.C. it is 16, the rest it is 17; thus sexual activity among "adults" is common in this age range (since 16 y.o.'s are considered "adult" enough to make this choice at that time.)
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 08-17-13 at 06:00 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  5. #205
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Little if any of this has any basis in facts.

    And again, strictly speaking from probabilities, I'd have to go with an organization that has countless man-hours of these kinds of investigations.
    It has a lot of basis in facts. Just like most crimes, without evidence, you cannot get a legal conviction. And simple accusations is not enough.

    Rape myths not behind low conviction rate, says leading family lawyer | Society | theguardian.com

    This is what I have been saying this whole time.

    "There are a lot of [rape] cases where there's no other evidence than one person's word against another. Both sides are saying they had sexual intercourse but [don't agree that it] took place in the [same] way … I don't think there's much more we can do to increase the conviction rate. I would like to see a more straightforward debate about the issue."
    I knew this from the beginning because I have had some criminal justice college classes, since that is my major. I know how evidence works and how it takes much more than a simple accusation for someone to be convicted of any crime, even rape. But private organizations, such as colleges, do not have to meet the same stringent levels of evidence as the justice system to punish a person accused of rape/sexual assault.
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  6. #206
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Do you not realize that this puts a serious damper on your argument?



    And why exactly are rapists rarely punished in a court of law? Did you ever consider that rape survivors have rights, too?

    I would encourage you to read this for investigation strategies of ruling out the highly unlikely, but entirely possible, chance of a false accusation. This notion that rape allegations all come down to "his word vs. hers" is simply false.

    I never said they all did. I am saying that it is almost impossible to determine which ones are false and which ones are real when the set of circumstances are pretty much the same, with the only difference being the accused lying about what level of consent was gotten. Campus cops and school officials aren't exactly trained on being able to spot who is telling the truth or not. Plus, there is still a very good chance that the person truly doesn't remember what happened. It is even possible that they don't remember whether consent was given or not, but the details are blurry for the accuser as well. It is still a matter of lack of evidence and it coming down to "he said/she said" situation.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #207
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    There are huge disincentives for a girl or woman to report being raped.

  8. #208
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    I have a small company that makes chastity belts. Last sale was to a Saudi prince in 1972.

    We have recently upgraded the product line, in hopes of stimulating sales.

    PM me if interested in bulk purchase. We are strict wholesale.

    Retail franchises available in most areas. Reasonable.
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

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