View Poll Results: Is non concentual sex always rape

Voters
72. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, non concensual sex is always rape

    56 77.78%
  • No, non concensual sex is not always rape

    16 22.22%
Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 1018192021 LastLast
Results 191 to 200 of 208

Thread: Non consentual sex is not rape

  1. #191
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Go for the eyes is the best simple suggestion. My wife knows a woman whose mother taught her to always keep her fingernails long and to file them at an angle from below to keep them SHARP specifically as weapons against assault. So she basically has 10 short daggers on her hands - "thrust and clinch." She is a strikingly beautiful woman and told of how that youthful training did save her life in the past. She was violently sexually assaulted and the man was trying to chock her to death - until she got a chance to ram a handful of sharpen fingernails into his eyes - and as he instinctively brought his hands to his eyes rearing up - she got hold of his testicles with her other hand of sharp claws clinging and pulling as hard as she could. At that point, the now blind man in extreme pain only had the goal of escaping. A blind man can't get away for very far.

    She told my wife they also come in handy to convince a man touching her that she doesn't approve of to stop. Like if a man in a flirting pushy sense puts his hand on her arm, all she has to do is "dig my claws into his arm just a little bit" and he'll back off.

  2. #192
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I've tried to follow your position but I am not sure what you are arguing. I consider "non-cosensual sex" to cover several areas. It could be outright sexual assault which is clearly rape. But it could also be a situation where a woman did not say anything, appeared to be a willing participant, and then later for any number of reasons, cried "rape." She is claiming it was non-consentual but it becomes a She-said/He-said situation.

    I think I made the following point earlier in the thread: Women today are more aware of "rape" issues than ever before. If a woman is raped she knows that she should immediately report the incident to the "real" police and not the campus security or the school administration. 911 is a very easy number to remember.

    However, the issue sometimes seems to come up days later and well after the "fact." The female claims she was intoxicated and "only knows because people said it happened to me while I was unconscious;" so she reports it. Or she was conscious and seemed willing at the time but blames intoxication/drugs when she gets "sober." Or she was willing and then gets upset because the boy she liked only wanted "one thing," so it's payback time. By "willing" I don't mean she says "yes, lets do it" clearly indicating to all and sundry "consent." A nod, and actively assisting in getting ready seemed to be all the indicators I needed of consent.

    After all, should men be carrying around a permission document along with their pack of condoms and require a signature to prove "consent?"

    So why are you emphasizing this "No" point, when very few women say Yes and if they say "No" they are very clear about it. How about when neither yes nor no was stated or clearly indicated in any manner? You don't see the possibility that this can be identified as "non-consensual sex" claim at the time of accusation?
    There are so many disincentives for a woman to report being sexually assaulted the list is too long to summarize.

  3. #193
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    By the way. Those of you defending the claim "if persons A and B are unable of giving consent, yet have sex anyway, it is plausible that neither of them committed rape" need to realize that two drunk adults having sex is not the only scenario that meets these conditions. If an adult gets drunk then has sex with a child, neither of them is giving consent. Yet by the standard repeatedly and vehemently offered by many of you, it is entirely possible that that pedophile did not commit rape. So if you stand by your position that two drunk people having sex is not necessarily rape, then you must, for consistency's sake, assume the same about pedophilia.

    "But this is different!" you say. How. How is it different. How is two people who are unable to give consent automatically rape in one circumstance and not in the other. Are you suggesting that there exist cases where not giving consent is insufficient to classify any sex at that time as rape? Or is it black-and-white, cut-and-dry, at least one person must have raped the other? Which is it?
    Its not like pedophilia at all. Not even a little bit. Your word game doesn't work.

  4. #194
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,534
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    By the way. Those of you defending the claim "if persons A and B are unable of giving consent, yet have sex anyway, it is plausible that neither of them committed rape" need to realize that two drunk adults having sex is not the only scenario that meets these conditions. If an adult gets drunk then has sex with a child, neither of them is giving consent. Yet by the standard repeatedly and vehemently offered by many of you, it is entirely possible that that pedophile did not commit rape. So if you stand by your position that two drunk people having sex is not necessarily rape, then you must, for consistency's sake, assume the same about pedophilia.

    "But this is different!" you say. How. How is it different. How is two people who are unable to give consent automatically rape in one circumstance and not in the other. Are you suggesting that there exist cases where not giving consent is insufficient to classify any sex at that time as rape? Or is it black-and-white, cut-and-dry, at least one person must have raped the other? Which is it?
    Just a point of information: A single such act, with no prior acts and sincere regret leading to no subsequent acts is not considered "pedophilia" by either the psychiatric or psychological community; although it is still considered a sex offense punishable by law. Check the DSM-IV and V and you will see the correct definition for "pedophilia." It adds exclusions for a single act committed from drunkeness, curiousity, emotional distress, etc. Regardless of these classification exclusions, it is still against the law and punishable.

    Carry on.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  5. #195
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Do you have statistics on this?
    No, I am saying it from the perspective of common sense, experience, and knowledge. Why go to a non-legal authority if you can go to a legal one that will bring real charges against a person? Why involve someone who will only possibly punish them through their career if you could get them put in jail, which would take down their career anyway? Plus, I've had the training in the military. I know what is being taught. We are taught to assume the accused is guilty, to ignore any beliefs about how that person would never do such a thing. I'm willing to bet such training is also in colleges as well. In places such as schools and the military and even likely some businesses (but this may depend on the business and the person accused), an accused person is assumed guilty until proven innocent, and people know this. Whereas in our legal system, a person is assumed innocent until proven guilty. It is a lot harder to prove yourself innocent, especially given some of the things we know about these situations, than it is to prove someone else is guilty given those same set of circumstances. In a courtroom, a person needs more than a simple accusation and unreliable testimony in order to convict a person on such rape accusations.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #196
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Last Seen
    10-27-13 @ 03:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,229

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, I am saying it from the perspective of common sense, experience, and knowledge. Why go to a non-legal authority if you can go to a legal one that will bring real charges against a person? Why involve someone who will only possibly punish them through their career if you could get them put in jail, which would take down their career anyway? Plus, I've had the training in the military. I know what is being taught. We are taught to assume the accused is guilty, to ignore any beliefs about how that person would never do such a thing. I'm willing to bet such training is also in colleges as well. In places such as schools and the military and even likely some businesses (but this may depend on the business and the person accused), an accused person is assumed guilty until proven innocent, and people know this. Whereas in our legal system, a person is assumed innocent until proven guilty. It is a lot harder to prove yourself innocent, especially given some of the things we know about these situations, than it is to prove someone else is guilty given those same set of circumstances. In a courtroom, a person needs more than a simple accusation and unreliable testimony in order to convict a person on such rape accusations.
    Look what happened to Mike Tyson..Groupie Desiree Washington..in his hotel room..in bed..naked..and then cries rape..ruined his career..sent to prison..

    I mean, at what point do you laff or cry??

  7. #197
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    By the way. Those of you defending the claim "if persons A and B are unable of giving consent, yet have sex anyway, it is plausible that neither of them committed rape" need to realize that two drunk adults having sex is not the only scenario that meets these conditions. If an adult gets drunk then has sex with a child, neither of them is giving consent. Yet by the standard repeatedly and vehemently offered by many of you, it is entirely possible that that pedophile did not commit rape. So if you stand by your position that two drunk people having sex is not necessarily rape, then you must, for consistency's sake, assume the same about pedophilia.

    "But this is different!" you say. How. How is it different. How is two people who are unable to give consent automatically rape in one circumstance and not in the other. Are you suggesting that there exist cases where not giving consent is insufficient to classify any sex at that time as rape? Or is it black-and-white, cut-and-dry, at least one person must have raped the other? Which is it?
    The circumstances are different because there is never any question about what point a child (for a given incident) could consent to sex with the other person. The child never could consent to sex. However, there are plenty of points where both parties in the situation given could consent to sex, and without knowing exactly what happened wherever it is that those two adults had sex and what condition either of them was in at the time, there is no way to know whether or not there was consent given and it either was forgotten or in fact just regretted after the fact. With a child, they can never give consent, so that point is never in contention. Either party when it comes to two adults, could technically be too drunk to give consent though. People just assume that if a man is too drunk to agree to sex that he couldn't get it up. It simply isn't necessarily true for all men.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #198
    Sage
    Phys251's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    12,707

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    You seem to be mounting a rational opposition to my views. The rest of you, please take note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I've tried to follow your position but I am not sure what you are arguing. I consider "non-cosensual sex" to cover several areas. It could be outright sexual assault which is clearly rape. But it could also be a situation where a woman did not say anything, appeared to be a willing participant, and then later for any number of reasons, cried "rape." She is claiming it was non-consentual but it becomes a She-said/He-said situation.

    I think I made the following point earlier in the thread: Women today are more aware of "rape" issues than ever before. If a woman is raped she knows that she should immediately report the incident to the "real" police and not the campus security or the school administration. 911 is a very easy number to remember.

    However, the issue sometimes seems to come up days later and well after the "fact." The female claims she was intoxicated and "only knows because people said it happened to me while I was unconscious;" so she reports it. Or she was conscious and seemed willing at the time but blames intoxication/drugs when she gets "sober." Or she was willing and then gets upset because the boy she liked only wanted "one thing," so it's payback time. By "willing" I don't mean she says "yes, lets do it" clearly indicating to all and sundry "consent." A nod, and actively assisting in getting ready seemed to be all the indicators I needed of consent.

    After all, should men be carrying around a permission document along with their pack of condoms and require a signature to prove "consent?"

    So why are you emphasizing this "No" point, when very few women say Yes and if they say "No" they are very clear about it. How about when neither yes nor no was stated or clearly indicated in any manner? You don't see the possibility that this can be identified as "non-consensual sex" claim at the time of accusation?
    Good questions. I'll use some logical deduction to attempt to answer them, but be advised that this may get a bit complicated.

    Let's start by defining terms to make sure we're all on the same page. Rape is the "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim" (FBI). Now right away, that last clause suggests that rape and non-consensual sex are one and the same. Are they?

    I will answer this in terms of set theory. A set is a well-defined collection of items or objects. For one set to be a subset of another, anything in the first set has to be in the second. For example, the set of all the different shades of blue is a subset of all the different colors out there. And a set is its own subset. Now by rule, if two sets are each others' subsets, then they are the same set.

    Still with me? OK good. Let's classify the set of all acts that qualify as rape as set R, and all acts that qualify as non-consensual sex as set N. Let's agree right now that R is a subset of N. If anyone disagrees with that, then either they don't understand what subsets are, or they don't understand what reality is. Now the big question that remains is whether N is a subset of R. If that occurs, then N = R, and we are done. But is it? Notice, we have not yet established a definition of what non-consensual sex is. Now, merely proving that all non-consensual sex is rape would prove that N = R, precluding this need. But this brings us right back to where we started.

    What is my position on whether N is a subset of R? I honestly don't know. I think it would make sense, but an interesting example--mutual drunk sex--was offered as a possible counterexample. So really, that's what we need to establish. It all comes down to examining that. Which, BTW, raises the question of what "consent" means--an entire discussion in its own right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Just a point of information: A single such act, with no prior acts and sincere regret leading to no subsequent acts is not considered "pedophilia" by either the psychiatric or psychological community; although it is still considered a sex offense punishable by law. Check the DSM-IV and V and you will see the correct definition for "pedophilia." It adds exclusions for a single act committed from drunkeness, curiousity, emotional distress, etc. Regardless of these classification exclusions, it is still against the law and punishable.

    Carry on.
    I think it was pretty clear that I was referring to the common-vernacular definition, not the DSM-IV definition. But you are technically correct.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  9. #199
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    EDIT - Nevermind, for some reason I misread it as consentual sex but not consent to video taping. Any time a person cannot consent because of age, or mental status it's rape.

    Legally, no, but it would fall under video voyeurism laws in many states. In Louisiana it's a major felony to video someone in a compromising position without their prior knowledge. If the sex is consentual that is one thing, if the video taping is another it is not.

    Don't confuse any of that with me condoning this particular type of thing though, I absolutely don't. This is a horrible thing to do to someone but legally doesn't meet the usual definition.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 08-17-13 at 05:25 PM.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  10. #200
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Maybe she was drunk.
    That COULD be rape. Most laws state that an intoxicated person may not have been in the mental state to give consent.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 1018192021 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •