View Poll Results: Is non concentual sex always rape

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  • Yes, non concensual sex is always rape

    56 77.78%
  • No, non concensual sex is not always rape

    16 22.22%
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Thread: Non consentual sex is not rape

  1. #171
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Wait, I'm supposed to read up on follow-up news stories before taking the negative position in a debate? Yet those taking the affirmative position can just cite the original story and leave it at that? Wow, that's a new one. I didn't even know that was a tactic! That little ruse may come in handy for me.

    But for the purposes of the rest of this post, I will overlook that. Here is what I read in the article:



    Four cases mentioned, already the "non-consensual sex" euphemism is used, zero mention of alcohol. Moving on...



    Ahhhhh. Finally someone alludes to a definition, and it gives me a reason to maybe, just maybe, rethink my position. All rape is sexual assault--or whatever the hell this "non-consensual sex" is--but not all sexual assault is rape. Now we just need to figure out what counts as "non-consensual sex."



    Is the highlighted phrase The standard we are looking for? Or is that just one of the guidelines? Or just an abbreviated summary? And what counts as "clean consent"?

    By the way, we have our first mention of alcohol. Notice it says "in too many cases," NOT "in all cases," implying that other factors are at work.

    And that's it. Your claim that this dilemma is all about drunk sex is clearly false.
    The majority of the cases appear to be alcohol related issues. There is also very possibly some that are simply not enough proof that there was no real consent. Maybe the girl accused the guy she was sleeping with of not getting her absolute consent one night but there isn't enough evidence or problems with her claim. Maybe there was a big breakup of the couple right before she makes the accusation and she claims it was because he "raped" her, and he claims it was something completely different and that they never had sex she didn't agree to. Who's telling the truth? How do you make that determination?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  2. #172
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Just as I thought, you do not understand the concept of burden of proof.

    When you learn it, feel free to let me know.
    oh the irony
    you lose again to facts, always fuunny when a person is so dishonest they deny facts
    "17 pages and the fact remains that not all non-consensual sex is rape"

    let us know when this fact changes
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  3. #173
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The majority of the cases appear to be alcohol related issues. There is also very possibly some that are simply not enough proof that there was no real consent. Maybe the girl accused the guy she was sleeping with of not getting her absolute consent one night but there isn't enough evidence or problems with her claim. Maybe there was a big breakup of the couple right before she makes the accusation and she claims it was because he "raped" her, and he claims it was something completely different and that they never had sex she didn't agree to. Who's telling the truth? How do you make that determination?
    The overwhelming majority of reliable sources I have checked place the rate of false rape allegations somewhere in the nineties--as in, at least 90% of all rape accusations are true.

    We need to deal with that 10% or less, whatever the number may be, but it in no way dismisses the problem of the other 90%. In either case, a life can be destroyed.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    By the way. Those of you defending the claim "if persons A and B are unable of giving consent, yet have sex anyway, it is plausible that neither of them committed rape" need to realize that two drunk adults having sex is not the only scenario that meets these conditions. If an adult gets drunk then has sex with a child, neither of them is giving consent. Yet by the standard repeatedly and vehemently offered by many of you, it is entirely possible that that pedophile did not commit rape. So if you stand by your position that two drunk people having sex is not necessarily rape, then you must, for consistency's sake, assume the same about pedophilia.

    "But this is different!" you say. How. How is it different. How is two people who are unable to give consent automatically rape in one circumstance and not in the other. Are you suggesting that there exist cases where not giving consent is insufficient to classify any sex at that time as rape? Or is it black-and-white, cut-and-dry, at least one person must have raped the other? Which is it?
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    By the way. Those of you defending the claim "if persons A and B are unable of giving consent, yet have sex anyway, it is plausible that neither of them committed rape" need to realize that two drunk adults having sex is not the only scenario that meets these conditions. If an adult gets drunk then has sex with a child, neither of them is giving consent. Yet by the standard repeatedly and vehemently offered by many of you, it is entirely possible that that pedophile did not commit rape. So if you stand by your position that two drunk people having sex is not necessarily rape, then you must, for consistency's sake, assume the same about pedophilia.

    "But this is different!" you say. How. How is it different. How is two people who are unable to give consent automatically rape in one circumstance and not in the other. Are you suggesting that there exist cases where not giving consent is insufficient to classify any sex at that time as rape? Or is it black-and-white, cut-and-dry, at least one person must have raped the other? Which is it?
    theres many things you dont know huh?

    wow thats the worst and most failed analogy ever
    one simple fact destoys it LMAO

    by LAW when it comes to pedophilia minors cant give consent

    try again

    also before you go making more stuff up "i" im not defending anybody in the OP or ALL scenarios of non-consensual sex, just further pointing out the fact that its now 18 pages and the fact remains that not all non-consensual sex is rape

    let us know when this changes
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  6. #176
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    theres many things you dont know huh?

    wow thats the worst and most failed analogy ever
    one simple fact destoys it LMAO

    by LAW when it comes to pedophilia minors cant give consent

    try again

    also before you go making more stuff up "i" im not defending anybody in the OP or ALL scenarios of non-consensual sex, just further pointing out the fact that its now 18 pages and the fact remains that not all non-consensual sex is rape

    let us know when this changes
    By LAW drunk people cannot give consent. Nice try.
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    By LAW drunk people cannot give consent. Nice try.
    yes i agree your post was a nice try but it failed facts still destroys your failed analogy lol

    an example was already given of factual non-consensual sex where the the adults were drunk and it was not rape nothign will change this fact, you seem to want to combined all of them to gether and make it a blanket issue, its not and its whay you are losing to facts.


    18 pages and the fact remains that not all non-consensual sex is rape

    let us know when this changes
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  8. #178
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    The overwhelming majority of reliable sources I have checked place the rate of false rape allegations somewhere in the nineties--as in, at least 90% of all rape accusations are true.

    We need to deal with that 10% or less, whatever the number may be, but it in no way dismisses the problem of the other 90%. In either case, a life can be destroyed.
    How exactly do they know that? How could they possibly know that? Especially in cases like we are talking about where a person is drunk and doesn't know what really happened or what the other person thought was being given consent-wise? You can't know that, especially for a specific set of cases with specific circumstances because it is mostly unverifiable, he said-she said testimony on what happened. So the number could in fact be well above 50% and that would be a lot of lives needlessly ruined because one person disagreed with another on whether consent was actually given or at least not denied and they were likely both drunk (which would nullify the consent thing anyway, or at least should), and there are other considerations to be made. It is not simple. And you should absolutely not believe that a person is automatically guilty just because someone accuses them. It is wrong. Guilty until proven innocent is not how we should operate. You need more evidence than a simple accusation. And in most of these cases, there really isn't any other evidence than simple testimony from both parties. So how do you determine which times the woman is telling the truth and which times the guy is or worse, which times where alcohol didn't interfere with their memories of what happened, particularly the accuser? You can have the same testimonies and have one person actually guilty and the other innocent.
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  9. #179
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    How exactly do they know that? How could they possibly know that? Especially in cases like we are talking about where a person is drunk and doesn't know what really happened or what the other person thought was being given consent-wise? You can't know that, especially for a specific set of cases with specific circumstances because it is mostly unverifiable, he said-she said testimony on what happened. So the number could in fact be well above 50% and that would be a lot of lives needlessly ruined because one person disagreed with another on whether consent was actually given or at least not denied and they were likely both drunk (which would nullify the consent thing anyway, or at least should), and there are other considerations to be made. It is not simple. And you should absolutely not believe that a person is automatically guilty just because someone accuses them. It is wrong. Guilty until proven innocent is not how we should operate. You need more evidence than a simple accusation. And in most of these cases, there really isn't any other evidence than simple testimony from both parties. So how do you determine which times the woman is telling the truth and which times the guy is or worse, which times where alcohol didn't interfere with their memories of what happened, particularly the accuser? You can have the same testimonies and have one person actually guilty and the other innocent.
    Check it out. Sources are linked there.
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  10. #180
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    Re: Non consentual sex is not rape

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Check it out. Sources are linked there.
    And that was about rapes reported to police, not sexual assaults/rapes reported in other fashions, which would most likely have a higher possibility of being false. Think about it. You want to get someone else in trouble but don't want to get yourself in trouble as well and you are in college. So you figure if you know of a time when you had sex with someone while you were drunk you can use that. It then becomes a he said/she said report. And with the way our colleges are working, in no small part due to media and just PC-ism, there would be an investigation by the campus which would require less evidence to prove that a rape happened than if it were reported to proper authorities, especially if the report is coming more than a couple of days after the incident.

    This is the sort of thing that happens in the military. There are women that take advantage of the fact that the military basically treats any accusation of rape as the guy is guilty, especially if he admits to having sex with the woman while she had been drinking at all, even if he had also been drinking. The police and/or DA would not likely have enough evidence to even bring such a case to trial, let alone convict the guy, but that isn't the case when it comes to punishment by an outside organization. Or, like that report that was done a couple of years ago, they compiled the number of women vets who were claiming sexual assault on VA benefits forms and used that as an indicator as to how many women in the military were being sexually assaulted. This is completely flawed. Those women are specifically looking for benefits and something like sexual assault can get them some benefits without providing any proof whatsoever that it happened. They didn't even have to have reported it while they were in, just claim it on the form.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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