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The electoral college

How should presidents be elected

  • Popular vote

    Votes: 27 45.8%
  • Electoral college

    Votes: 32 54.2%

  • Total voters
    59
Contrary to modern perceptions, the founding generation did not intend to create a direct democracy. To the contrary, the Founders deliberately created a republic -- or, arguably, a republican democracy -- that would incorporate a spirit of compromise and deliberation into decision-making. Such a form of government, the Founders believed, would allow them to achieve two potentially conflicting objectives: avoiding the "tyranny of the majority" inherent in pure democratic systems, while allowing the "sense of the people" to be reflected in the new American government. A republican government, organized on federalist principles, would allow the delegates to achieve the most difficult of their tasks by enabling large and small sovereign states to live peacefully alongside each other.

The author(s) of the Constitution (Madison often called the father of the Constitution) had studied the history of many failed democratic systems, and they wanted to create a different form of government. Indeed, James Madison, delegate from Virginia, argued that unrestrained majorities such as those found in pure democracies tend toward tyranny. Madison stated it this way:

[In a pure democracy], [a] common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert results from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Know the failures of democracies from history, the Founders were still strong advocates for self-government, and they often spoke of the need to allow the will of the people to operate in the new government that they were crafting. "Not withstanding the oppressions & injustice experienced among us from democracy," Virginia delegate George Mason declared ( after experiencing the tyrannical democracy from Mother England), "the genius of the people must be consulted." James Madison agreed. The Electoral College was considered to fit perfectly within this republican, federalist government that had been created. The system would allow majorities to rule, but only while they were reasonable, broad-based, and not tyrannical while allowing all states no matter how small a voice.

National Popular Vote is NOT direct or pure democracy.
Direct or pure democracy is a form of government in which people vote on policy initiatives directly. With National Popular Vote, the United States would still be a republic, in which citizens continue to elect the President by a majority of Electoral College votes by states, to represent us and conduct the business of government in the periods between elections.

National Popular Vote does not abolish the Electoral College. The Electoral College is now the set of 538 dedicated party activists who vote as rubberstamps for presidential candidates. In the current presidential election system, 48 states award all of their electors to the winners of their state.

The National Popular Vote bill would change current state winner-take-all laws that award all of a state’s electoral votes to the candidate who get the most popular votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but since enacted by 48 states), to a system guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes for, and the Presidency to, the candidate getting the most popular votes in the entire United States.

The bill preserves the constitutionally mandated Electoral College and state control of elections.

Unable to agree on any particular method for selecting presidential electors, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method exclusively to the states in section 1 of Article II of the U.S. Constitution-- "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

The Constitution does not prohibit any of the methods that were debated and rejected.

States have the responsibility and power to make all of their voters relevant in every presidential election and beyond.

Anyone who supports the current presidential election system, believing it is what the Founders intended and that it is in the Constitution, is mistaken. The current presidential election system does not function, at all, the way that the Founders thought that it would.

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, universal suffrage, and the 48 state-by-state winner-take-all method) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

The current 48 state-by-state winner-take-all method (i.e., awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in a particular state) is not entitled to any special deference based on history or the historical meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution. It is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, the debates of the Constitutional Convention, or the Federalist Papers. The actions taken by the Founding Fathers make it clear that they never gave their imprimatur to the winner-take-all method.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, the people had no vote for President in most states, only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote, and only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all method to award electoral votes.

In the nation's first presidential election in 1789, a majority of the states appointed their presidential electors using two of the methods of awarding electors rejected by the Founders (i.e., appointment by the legislature and by the governor and his cabinet). Presidential electors were appointed by state legislatures for almost a century.
 
If the National Popular Vote bill were to become law, it would not change the need for candidates to build a winning coalition across demographics. Candidates would have to appeal to a broad range of demographics, and perhaps even more so, because the election wouldn't be capable of coming down to just one demographic, such as waitress mom voters in Ohio.

Not really true. In 2008 a majority of Obama's 69 million votes came from just 85 counties, all big cities except for a few Maryland suburbs. Most of those areas he didn't even campaign in. A smart politician would try to run up the vote in those 85 counties, all of which have similar demographics, and let the rest of the chips fall where they may in the other 3060 counties.
With the current system of electing the President, no state requires that a presidential candidate receive anything more than the most popular votes in order to receive all of the state's electoral votes.

Not a single legislative bill has been introduced in any state legislature in recent decades (among the more than 100,000 bills that are introduced in every two-year period by the nation's 7,300 state legislators) proposing to change the existing universal practice of the states to award electoral votes to the candidate who receives a plurality (as opposed to absolute majority) of the votes (statewide or district-wide). There is no evidence of any public sentiment in favor of imposing such a requirement.

Just because there is no sentiment for it doesn't mean its not a good idea.

If an Electoral College type of arrangement were essential for avoiding a proliferation of candidates and people being elected with low percentages of the vote, we should see evidence of these conjectured outcomes in elections that do not employ such an arrangement. In elections in which the winner is the candidate receiving the most votes throughout the entire jurisdiction served by that office, historical evidence shows that there is no proliferation of third-party candidates and candidates do not win with small percentages. For example, in 905 elections for governor in the last 60 years, the winning candidate received more than 50% of the vote in over 91% of the elections. The winning candidate received more than 45% of the vote in 98% of the elections. The winning candidate received more than 40% of the vote in 99% of the elections. No winning candidate received less than 35% of the popular vote.

10% of elections ending up without a majority seems like a problem to me.
Since 1824 there have been 16 presidential elections in which a candidate was elected or reelected without gaining a majority of the popular vote.-- including Lincoln (1860), Wilson (1912, and 1916), Truman (1948), Kennedy (1960), Nixon (1968), and Clinton (1992 and 1996).

Americans do not view the absence of run-offs in the current system as a major problem. If, at some time in the future, the public demands run-offs, that change can be implemented at that time.

I don't care what the majority of Americans view as a problem. I see it as a problem. At least the electoral system provides a mechanism for stopping the candidate who recieves a mere plurality from automatically becoming president, although with our two party system it has never happened. If a third party candidate were strong enough to win some states, he could force it to congress. With the Compact.

Remember . . . with the current system, it could only take winning a plurality of the popular vote in the 11 most populous states, containing 56% of the population of the United States, for a candidate to win the Presidency with a mere 23% of the nation's votes.

Theoretically possible and a common argument against the electoral college, but not something that would ever actually happen. If we're going for theoretical systems that could never actually happen, under the Popular Vote Compact a candidate could when in election with just 1% of the votes in a divided enough election.

In a contingent election, the U.S. House of Representatives would choose the President (with each state having one vote). In the House, each state is entitled to cast one vote for President (with equally divided states being unable to cast a vote). In the Senate, each Senator is entitled to cast one vote for Vice President. Approval of Congress now is at less than 10%.

Approval of congress is irrelevant. I believe their picking of the president would be better than a candidate in a three or four way race squeaking by with ~30% of the vote.
 
National Popular Vote is NOT direct or pure democracy.
Direct or pure democracy is a form of government in which people vote on policy initiatives directly. With National Popular Vote, the United States would still be a republic, in which citizens continue to elect the President by a majority of Electoral College votes by states, to represent us and conduct the business of government in the periods between elections.

National Popular Vote does not abolish the Electoral College. The Electoral College is now the set of 538 dedicated party activists who vote as rubberstamps for presidential candidates. In the current presidential election system, 48 states award all of their electors to the winners of their state.

The National Popular Vote bill would change current state winner-take-all laws that award all of a state’s electoral votes to the candidate who get the most popular votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but since enacted by 48 states), to a system guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes for, and the Presidency to, the candidate getting the most popular votes in the entire United States.

The bill preserves the constitutionally mandated Electoral College and state control of elections.

Unable to agree on any particular method for selecting presidential electors, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method exclusively to the states in section 1 of Article II of the U.S. Constitution-- "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

The Constitution does not prohibit any of the methods that were debated and rejected.

States have the responsibility and power to make all of their voters relevant in every presidential election and beyond.

Anyone who supports the current presidential election system, believing it is what the Founders intended and that it is in the Constitution, is mistaken. The current presidential election system does not function, at all, the way that the Founders thought that it would.

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, universal suffrage, and the 48 state-by-state winner-take-all method) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

The current 48 state-by-state winner-take-all method (i.e., awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in a particular state) is not entitled to any special deference based on history or the historical meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution. It is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, the debates of the Constitutional Convention, or the Federalist Papers. The actions taken by the Founding Fathers make it clear that they never gave their imprimatur to the winner-take-all method.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, the people had no vote for President in most states, only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote, and only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all method to award electoral votes.

In the nation's first presidential election in 1789, a majority of the states appointed their presidential electors using two of the methods of awarding electors rejected by the Founders (i.e., appointment by the legislature and by the governor and his cabinet). Presidential electors were appointed by state legislatures for almost a century.

The National Popular Vote Plan is an initiative to effectively abolish the Electoral College without a constitutional amendment. A number of state legislatures have already adopted an agreement in which participating states would allocate their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote, rather than the winner of the popular vote in their state. The agreement would go into effect when states with a total of more than the 270 electoral votes (the number required to win a presidential election) have adopted the agreement. Is this not an agreement.... an interstate compact that requires the approval of Congress? What this entire plan is a way of attempting to avoid having to pass a constitutional amendment to get rid of the Electoral College. Because constitutionally, that is what would be required.

Why are you hell bent on fixing something that isn't broken? And why are you willing to use such a tactic that avoids the Constitutional remedy?

My conclusion is this, you are a Constitution Shredder. You are no different than those who judge shop for activist judges to overturn the vote of a people within any state over certain issues. Like what the 9th Circus Court of Appeals did to the voters in California over Gay Marriage. Or like what the left did by judge shopping to get abortion to the Supreme Court at a time when left political appointees were in the majority to force the law onto the people when the majority were against it then and today the majority are still against it. You are among the group that have no appreciation for the Constitution and therefore always looking for backdoor ways to change it.
 
The National Popular Vote Plan is an initiative to effectively abolish the Electoral College without a constitutional amendment. A number of state legislatures have already adopted an agreement in which participating states would allocate their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote, rather than the winner of the popular vote in their state. The agreement would go into effect when states with a total of more than the 270 electoral votes (the number required to win a presidential election) have adopted the agreement. Is this not an agreement.... an interstate compact that requires the approval of Congress? What this entire plan is a way of attempting to avoid having to pass a constitutional amendment to get rid of the Electoral College. Because constitutionally, that is what would be required.

Why are you hell bent on fixing something that isn't broken? And why are you willing to use such a tactic that avoids the Constitutional remedy?

My conclusion is this, you are a Constitution Shredder. You are no different than those who judge shop for activist judges to overturn the vote of a people within any state over certain issues. Like what the 9th Circus Court of Appeals did to the voters in California over Gay Marriage. Or like what the left did by judge shopping to get abortion to the Supreme Court at a time when left political appointees were in the majority to force the law onto the people when the majority were against it then and today the majority are still against it. You are among the group that have no appreciation for the Constitution and therefore always looking for backdoor ways to change it.

The indefensible reality is that more than 99% of campaign attention was showered on voters in just ten states in 2012- and that in today's political climate, the swing states have become increasingly fewer and fixed.

Where you live should not determine how much, if at all, your vote matters.

The current state-by-state winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but since enacted by 48 states), ensures that the candidates, after the conventions, will not reach out to about 80% of the states and their voters. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the voter concerns in the dozens of states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind.

National Popular Vote changes nothing in the Constitution.

The Electoral College is now the set of 538 dedicated party activists, who vote as rubberstamps for presidential candidates.

National Popular Vote does not abolish the Electoral College.

When the bill is enacted by states with a majority of the Electoral College votes-- enough Electoral College votes to elect a President (270 of 538), all the ELECTORAL COLLEGE votes from the enacting states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in the country. A majority of the Electoral College would elect the President.

The U.S. Constitution says "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

The normal way of changing the method of electing the President is not a federal constitutional amendment, but changes in state law. The U.S. Constitution gives "exclusive" and "plenary" control to the states over the appointment of presidential electors.

Historically, virtually all of the previous major changes in the method of electing the President have come about by state legislative action. For example, the people had no vote for President in most states in the nation's first election in 1789. However, now, as a result of changes in the state laws governing the appointment of presidential electors, the people have the right to vote for presidential electors in 100% of the states.

The normal process of effecting change in the method of electing the President is specified in the U.S. Constitution, namely action by the state legislatures. This is how the current system was created, and this is the built-in method that the Constitution provides for making changes. The abnormal process is to go outside the Constitution, and amend it.

Congressional consent is not required for the National Popular Vote compact under prevailing U.S. Supreme Court rulings. However, because there would undoubtedly be time-consuming litigation about this aspect of the compact, National Popular Vote is working to introduce a bill in Congress for congressional consent.

The U.S. Constitution provides:

"No state shall, without the consent of Congress,… enter into any agreement or compact with another state…."

Although this language may seem straight forward, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled, in 1893 and again in 1978, that the Compacts Clause can "not be read literally." In deciding the 1978 case of U.S. Steel Corporation v. Multistate Tax Commission, the Court wrote:

"Read literally, the Compact Clause would require the States to obtain congressional approval before entering into any agreement among themselves, irrespective of form, subject, duration, or interest to the United States.

"The difficulties with such an interpretation were identified by Mr. Justice Field in his opinion for the Court in [the 1893 case] Virginia v. Tennessee. His conclusion [was] that the Clause could not be read literally [and this 1893 conclusion has been] approved in subsequent dicta."

Specifically, the Court's 1893 ruling in Virginia v. Tennessee stated:

"Looking at the clause in which the terms 'compact' or 'agreement' appear, it is evident that the prohibition is directed to the formation of any combination tending to the increase of political power in the states, which may encroach upon or interfere with the just supremacy of the United States."

The state power involved in the National Popular Vote compact is specified in Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 the U.S. Constitution:

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors…."

In the 1892 case of McPherson v. Blacker (146 U.S. 1), the Court wrote:

"The appointment and mode of appointment of electors belong exclusively to the states under the constitution of the United States"

The National Popular Vote compact would not "encroach upon or interfere with the just supremacy of the United States" because there is simply no federal power -- much less federal supremacy -- in the area of awarding of electoral votes in the first place.

In the 1978 case of U.S. Steel Corporation v. Multistate Tax Commission, the compact at issue specified that it would come into force when seven or more states enacted it. The compact was silent as to the role of Congress. The compact was submitted to Congress for its consent. After encountering fierce political opposition from various business interests concerned about the more stringent tax audits anticipated under the compact, the compacting states proceeded with the implementation of the compact without congressional consent. U.S. Steel challenged the states' action. In upholding the constitutionality of the implementation of the compact by the states without congressional consent, the U.S. Supreme Court applied the interpretation of the Compacts Clause from its 1893 holding in Virginia v. Tennessee, writing that:

"the test is whether the Compact enhances state power quaod [with regard to] the National Government."

The Court also noted that the compact did not

"authorize the member states to exercise any powers they could not exercise in its absence."
 
What is so great about having candidates visit your state? They snarl traffic and they bomb your airwaves with broadcast spam. Obama was more interested in the turnout in Philly than is any other big city.

Advertising is truly the dumbest of reasons for getting rid of the Electoral College, which btw, IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!
 
Well heymarket lets look how long it has been successfully in place for starters....... America's election systems have operated smoothly for more than 200
years because the Electoral College accomplishes its intended purposes. America's presidential election process preserves federalism, prevents electoral chaos by creating definitive electoral outcomes, promotes coalition building among different regions of the country, and prevents tyrannical or unreasonable
rule. It further protects the freedom of individuals in small and sparsely populated states from the tyranny of the majority in a national election for President. I don't care if you are left, right, up , down or in-between, that should be a concern to all.

It really depends on how you judge success. While the things you've stated are all laudable I think the gold standard for any election system is how accurately it represents the will of the electorate. I don't think our system has been a resounding success in that regard.

How exactly does our system in practice promote coalition building or protect sparsely populated states? I'm not seeing that at all. And in any case if that's your gold standard it'd be kind of hard to beat a Parliamentary system.


[In a pure democracy], [a] common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert results from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.[/B]


Know the failures of democracies from history, the Founders were still strong advocates for self-government, and they often spoke of the need to allow the will of the people to operate in the new government that they were crafting. "Not withstanding the oppressions & injustice experienced among us from democracy," Virginia delegate George Mason declared ( after experiencing the tyrannical democracy from Mother England), "the genius of the people must be consulted." James Madison agreed. The Electoral College was considered to fit perfectly within this republican, federalist government that had been created. The system would allow majorities to rule, but only while they were reasonable, broad-based, and not tyrannical while allowing all states no matter how small a voice.

Democracy really has nothing to do with the mechanics of how elections are run. The founders feared direct democracy as you say, that why we have a representative democracy - "elite democracy" in the language of those days - and a Constitution.
 
Not really true. In 2008 a majority of Obama's 69 million votes came from just 85 counties, all big cities except for a few Maryland suburbs.

Let us not forget all the places where the turnout was greater than 100%. I don't care if the left or right says there is no fraud. That sort of thing clearly indicates it. Just think how much worse it would be with a popular vote.
 
I think we need election reform, but I don't like the idea of having the popular vote decide elections. Why? Because the population of some states is extremely high, giving them an advantage and playing into "mob rule". How about not having designated parties (R's and D's)...I'd rather see that kind of election reform.
 
The Electoral College is not the issue; the winner take all selection of electors is...

I agree, but I think they both are an issue, we could give each candidate a proportion of the electors based on the votes they earned in that state, but at the end of the day that is basically a national popular vote.
 
Let us not forget all the places where the turnout was greater than 100%. I don't care if the left or right says there is no fraud. That sort of thing clearly indicates it. Just think how much worse it would be with a popular vote.

There is no proof that any significant voter fraud happened, I mean big stuff, like how Fox claimed there were districts Obama where won every single vote... etc.
But it wouldn't be any worse, the President won the popular vote in every election except for something like 3 or 4 times. You could argue turnout would increase since people who live in a landslide state would actually bother to vote, but I really don't think we would see many changes except for the cases where the pop vote is won and the electoral college is lost.
 
Quite a senseless rant you have going there. No doubt driven by you living in a location that is overpopulated. I've always heard such overcrowding can cause psychosis.

Yes, because we are like locusts whom, when in large groups, get frenzied.

The electoral college has no logical validation for its existence. It's there because the Constitution said it should be there and it's a horrible, horrible system.
 
I agree, but I think they both are an issue, we could give each candidate a proportion of the electors based on the votes they earned in that state, but at the end of the day that is basically a national popular vote.

Leading to elections with dozens of candidates of whom nobody scores more than 20%.
 
Let us not forget all the places where the turnout was greater than 100%. I don't care if the left or right says there is no fraud. That sort of thing clearly indicates it. Just think how much worse it would be with a popular vote.

By all means - do present your evidence of election voter fraud. And since it is the states popular vote which determines the states electoral vote winning slate, your proclaimed problem is already there and no change abolishing the EC would make any difference.
 
There is no proof that any significant voter fraud happened,

Funny, when a (D) wins, the (D)'s say it didn't happen, when a (R) wins the (R)'s say it didn't happen. Until voters on both sides quit playing that silly game and realize the politicians are gaming us, it will continue.


The electoral college has no logical validation for its existence. It's there because the Constitution said it should be there and it's a horrible, horrible system.

Utter ignorance. Thank you for being part of the reason our country is going down the crapper.


Lord I wish schools actually educated people like they used to.
 
Utter ignorance. Thank you for being part of the reason our country is going down the crapper.


Lord I wish schools actually educated people like they used to.

Ok. Educate me please. Give me 5 reasons, that I can't debunk, for why the electoral college is better than the popular vote and I'll shut up.
 
Ok. Educate me please. Give me 5 reasons, that I can't debunk, for why the electoral college is better than the popular vote and I'll shut up.

1. Mob rule would allow a majority of bible thumpers to put into power people that would undo roe v wade, would undo the legalization of gay marriage, and loads of over negative things. Think minorities and how they would then be controlled by the majority. There are no other reasons needed, and this is not 'debunkable'.
 
1. Mob rule would allow a majority of bible thumpers to put into power people that would undo roe v wade, would undo the legalization of gay marriage, and loads of over negative things. Think minorities and how they would then be controlled by the majority. There are no other reasons needed, and this is not 'debunkable'.

How do you achieve that? How does popular vote do that? Roe v wade was a Supreme court decision. The President of the USA and Congress had nothing to do with it. They aren't justices on the Supreme Court bench now are they? They didn't get a vote/
I am not saying that you should have popular vote to elect Supreme court justices. We're talking about electing the President.


What do you think popular vote means buddy? It means that instead of having this idiotic system where you win states, not people, and you make votes unequal depending in which state you live, and you disenfranchize millions of americans living in the territories that aren't states, you have a univeral vote. You go to the poll and vote. Just like you do today. Only instead of your vote going towards the state you're in, it goes directly to the tally of the presidential race.

Now, if you live in California, your vote means less than the guy who lives in Delaware because Delaware, the state, gets 3 votes when it doesn't have the population to justify it. And California doesn't get the right number of votes for its population.
And while this measure is meant to 'protect' the smaller states, no matter what idiotic notion that is, it doesn't because the candidates spend time in the swing states.


This reason is thoroughly bogus. Please come up with another. Come on, I'm taking you to school right here and right now.
 
We're talking about electing the President.

And you have totally bypassed what that means, other than putting someone in office.

Personally those that live in California shouldn't have a vote, just as those that live in Detroit shouldn't. If you can't even get your state right, you have NO business being involved at a federal level.

But it is clear you seem either unwilling or incapable of understanding what mob rule does, no matter how many examples there are through history. No point in any further discussion with someone blind to the reality of the history of humans. Such a person is not capable of taking anyone 'to school'. That they think they can is a hysterical joke.
 
And you have totally bypassed what that means, other than putting someone in office.

Personally those that live in California shouldn't have a vote, just as those that live in Detroit shouldn't. If you can't even get your state right, you have NO business being involved at a federal level.

But it is clear you seem either unwilling or incapable of understanding what mob rule does, no matter how many examples there are through history. No point in any further discussion with someone blind to the reality of the history of humans. Such a person is not capable of taking anyone 'to school'. That they think they can is a hysterical joke.

Oh, so now you are disenfranchizing other citizens of the USA even those that are part of states. I guess taking away electoral rights from 4 millions of americans in the territories like Puerto Rico and Guam is not enough. If popular vote would be a thing, those people could have voted in this last election. And the one before that. And the one before that, etc.

You still owe me 5 good reasons that I can't debunk. But there are no good reasons. There is just 1 motive that this exists, and that's because it's how the Constitution was written to give votes to states, not people. A flaw that has caused the more unpopular president to be elected 3 times in US history, the last of which being Bush.

Mob rule means something very different. I fear you are the one who fails to understand what that is. for instance, if the court had bent to the will of the 'mob' in the trayvon martin case, that would be mob rule.

The electoral college is a flawed system that encourages voter apathy. The way to have better leaders is less dependent on the system of voting but rather on the quality of the voters. Having popular vote wouldn't mean you will have better leaders. It just means you will have the more beloved leader by the people.
 
You still owe me 5 good reasons that I can't debunk.

I *owe* nothing to the ignorant. But please further respond with more nonsense so everyone can see how off base you are in your beliefs.
 
I *owe* nothing to the ignorant. But please further respond with more nonsense so everyone can see how off base you are in your beliefs.

Ok. Then link me to a place which can explain these things better than you? Come on, I really want to see what reasons can 29 people on this forum to vote for the electoral college.

I can give you 2 videos as to why the electoral college is crap and if I am honest, here are 2 more sites that deal with this issue.

The Electoral College - Pros and Cons

Should the Electoral College be abolished? | Scholastic.com

Want to know what is listed as a good argument to keep the electoral college? having a 2 party system and a first past the post voting method. Both of which are horrible, horrible ideas.
Want to know what is listed as an against argument? Aside from the very well crafted arguments I made, the fact that we are living in the XXIth century where we have access to information at our fingertips. We just need to have the desire to enhance the means of obtaining said information. And with a 2 party system and the electoral college, that incentive is virtually innexistent because there is no real choice and your vote doesn't really matter, nor is it equal to others'. It's the states that matter, not the people.
 
There is no proof that any significant voter fraud happened, I mean big stuff, like how Fox claimed there were districts Obama where won every single vote... etc.
But it wouldn't be any worse, the President won the popular vote in every election except for something like 3 or 4 times. You could argue turnout would increase since people who live in a landslide state would actually bother to vote, but I really don't think we would see many changes except for the cases where the pop vote is won and the electoral college is lost.

Because of the state-by-state winner-take-all electoral votes laws (i.e., awarding all of a state’s electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in each state) in 48 states, a candidate can win the Presidency without winning the most popular votes nationwide. This has occurred in 4 of the nation's 57 (1 in 14 = 7%) presidential elections. The precariousness of the current state-by-state winner-take-all system of awarding electoral votes is highlighted by the fact that a shift of a few thousand voters in one or two states would have elected the second-place candidate in 4 of the 15 presidential elections since World War II. Near misses are now frequently common. There have been 7 consecutive non-landslide presidential elections (1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2012). 537 popular votes won Florida and the White House for Bush in 2000 despite Gore's lead of 537,179 (1,000 times more) popular votes nationwide. A shift of 60,000 voters in Ohio in 2004 would have defeated President Bush despite his nationwide lead of over 3 million votes.

The current state-by-state winner-take-all system of awarding electoral votes maximizes the incentive and opportunity for fraud, coercion, intimidation, confusion, and voter suppression. A very few people can change the national outcome by adding, changing, or suppressing a small number of votes in one closely divided battleground state. With the current system all of a state's electoral votes are awarded to the candidate who receives a bare plurality of the votes in each state. The sheer magnitude of the national popular vote number, compared to individual state vote totals, is much more robust against manipulation.

National Popular Vote would limit the benefits to be gained by fraud or voter suppression. One suppressed vote would be one less vote. One fraudulent vote would only win one vote in the return. In the current electoral system, one fraudulent vote could mean 55 electoral votes, or just enough electoral votes to win the presidency without having the most popular votes in the country.

The closest popular-vote election count over the last 130+ years of American history (in 1960), had a nationwide margin of more than 100,000 popular votes. The closest electoral-vote election in American history (in 2000) was determined by 537 votes, all in one state, when there was a lead of 537,179 (1,000 times more) popular votes nationwide.

For a national popular vote election to be as easy to switch as 2000, it would have to be two hundred times closer than the 1960 election--and, in popular-vote terms, forty times closer than 2000 itself.

Which system offers vote suppressors or fraudulent voters a better shot at success for a smaller effort?


In 2008, voter turnout in the then 15 battleground states averaged seven points higher than in the 35 non-battleground states.

In 2012, voter turnout was 11% higher in the 9 battleground states than in the remainder of the country.

If presidential campaigns now did not ignore more than 200,000,000 of 300,000,000 Americans, one would reasonably expect that voter turnout would rise in 80% of the country that is currently ignored by presidential campaigns.

With National Popular Vote, every vote would be equal. Candidates would reallocate their time, the money they raise, and their ad buys to no longer ignore 80% of the states and voters.
 
I agree, but I think they both are an issue, we could give each candidate a proportion of the electors based on the votes they earned in that state, but at the end of the day that is basically a national popular vote.

Any state that enacts the proportional approach on its own would reduce its own influence. This was the most telling argument that caused Colorado voters to agree with Republican Governor Owens and to reject this proposal in November 2004 by a two-to-one margin.

If the proportional approach were implemented by a state, on its own, it would have to allocate its electoral votes in whole numbers. If a current battleground state were to change its winner-take-all statute to a proportional method for awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates would pay less attention to that state because only one electoral vote would probably be at stake in the state.

If states were to ever start adopting the whole-number proportional approach on a piecemeal basis, each additional state adopting the approach would increase the influence of the remaining states and thereby would decrease the incentive of the remaining states to adopt it. Thus, a state-by-state process of adopting the whole-number proportional approach would quickly bring itself to a halt, leaving the states that adopted it with only minimal influence in presidential elections.

The proportional method also could result in third party candidates winning electoral votes that would deny either major party candidate the necessary majority vote of electors and throw the process into Congress to decide.

If the whole-number proportional approach, the only proportional option available to an individual state on its own, had been in use throughout the country in the nation’s closest recent presidential election (2000), it would not have awarded the most electoral votes to the candidate receiving the most popular votes nationwide. Instead, the result would have been a tie of 269–269 in the electoral vote, even though Al Gore led by 537,179 popular votes across the nation. The presidential election would have been thrown into Congress to decide and resulted in the election of the second-place candidate in terms of the national popular vote.

A system in which electoral votes are divided proportionally by state would not accurately reflect the nationwide popular vote and would not make every vote equal.

It would penalize states, such as Montana, that have only one U.S. Representative even though it has almost three times more population than other small states with one congressman. It would penalize fast-growing states that do not receive any increase in their number of electoral votes until after the next federal census. It would penalize states with high voter turnout (e.g., Utah, Oregon).

Moreover, the fractional proportional allocation approach, which would require a constitutional amendment, does not assure election of the winner of the nationwide popular vote. In 2000, for example, it would have resulted in the election of the second-place candidate.

A national popular vote is the way to make every person's vote equal and matter to their candidate because it guarantees that the candidate who gets the most votes in all 50 states and DC becomes President.
 
I think we need election reform, but I don't like the idea of having the popular vote decide elections. Why? Because the population of some states is extremely high, giving them an advantage and playing into "mob rule". How about not having designated parties (R's and D's)...I'd rather see that kind of election reform.

One person, one vote.

With National Popular Vote, every vote is equal, every voter will matter, in every state, in every presidential election, and the candidate with the most votes wins, as in virtually every other election in the country.

The National Popular Vote bill would end the disproportionate attention and influence of the "mob" in the current handful of closely divided battleground states, such as Ohio and Florida, while the "mobs" of the vast majority of states are ignored. 9 states determined the 2012 election. 10 of the original 13 states are politically irrelevant in presidential campaigns now. Four out of five Americans were ignored in the 2012 presidential election. After being nominated, Obama visited just eight closely divided battleground states, and Romney visited only 10. These 10 states accounted for 98% of the $940 million spent on campaign advertising. In 2008, 98% of the campaign events involving a presidential or vice-presidential candidate occurred in just 15 closely divided "battleground" states. 12 of the 13 lowest population states (3-4 electoral votes), that are non-competitive are ignored, in presidential elections.

With the current state-by-state winner-take-all system of awarding electoral votes, it could only take winning a bare plurality of popular votes in the 11 most populous states, containing 56% of the population of the United States, for a candidate to win the Presidency with a mere 23% of the nation's votes!
 
What is so great about having candidates visit your state? They snarl traffic and they bomb your airwaves with broadcast spam. Obama was more interested in the turnout in Philly than is any other big city.

Advertising is truly the dumbest of reasons for getting rid of the Electoral College, which btw, IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!
One more time. National Popular Vote does not get rid of the Electoral College. The Electoral College is the set of 538 dedicated party activists, who vote as rubberstamps for presidential candidates.

The National Popular Vote bill would change current state winner-take-all laws that award all of a state’s electoral votes to the candidate who get the most popular votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but since enacted by 48 states), to a system guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes for, and the Presidency to, the candidate getting the most popular votes in the entire United States.

The bill preserves the constitutionally mandated Electoral College and state control of elections

In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).
Support for a national popular vote is strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in virtually every state surveyed in recent polls in recent closely divided Battleground states: CO – 68%, FL – 78%, IA 75%, MI – 73%, MO – 70%, NH – 69%, NV – 72%, NM– 76%, NC – 74%, OH – 70%, PA – 78%, VA – 74%, and WI – 71%; in Small states (3 to 5 electoral votes): AK – 70%, DC – 76%, DE – 75%, ID – 77%, ME – 77%, MT – 72%, NE 74%, NH – 69%, NV – 72%, NM – 76%, OK – 81%, RI – 74%, SD – 71%, UT – 70%, VT – 75%, WV – 81%, and WY – 69%; in Southern and Border states: AR – 80%, KY- 80%, MS – 77%, MO – 70%, NC – 74%, OK – 81%, SC – 71%, TN – 83%, VA – 74%, and WV – 81%; and in other states polled: AZ – 67%, CA – 70%, CT – 74%, MA – 73%, MN – 75%, NY – 79%, OR – 76%, and WA – 77%. Americans believe that the candidate who receives the most votes should win.

The bill has passed 32 state legislative chambers in 21 states with 243 electoral votes. The bill has been enacted by 10 jurisdictions with 136 electoral votes – 50.4% of the 270 necessary to go into effect.

NationalPopularVote


Follow the campaign money and resources.

80% of the states and people have been merely spectators to presidential elections. They have no influence. That's more than 85 million voters, 200 million Americans, ignored. When and where voters are ignored, then so are the issues they care about most.

The number and population of battleground states is shrinking.

Policies important to the citizens of non-battleground states are not as highly prioritized as policies important to the handful of ‘battleground’ states when it comes to governing.

Charlie Cook reported in 2004:
“Senior Bush campaign strategist Matthew Dowd pointed out yesterday that the Bush campaign hadn’t taken a national poll in almost two years; instead, it has been polling [in the then] 18 battleground states.” [only 10 in 2012]

In apportionment of federal grants by the executive branch, swing states received about 7.6% more federal grants and about 5.7% more federal grant money between 1992 and 2008 than would be expected based on patterns in other states.

During the course of campaigns, candidates are educated and campaign about the local, regional, and state issues most important to the handful of battleground states they need to win. They take this knowledge and prioritization with them once they are elected. Candidates need to be educated and care about all of our states.

Compare the response to hurricane Katrina (in Louisiana, a "safe" state) to the federal response to hurricanes in Florida (a "swing" state) under Presidents of both parties. President Obama took more interest in the BP oil spill, once it reached Florida's shores, after it had first reached Louisiana. Some pandering policy examples include ethanol subsidies, Steel Tariffs, and Medicare Part D. Policies not given priority, include those most important to non-battleground states - like water issues in the west, and Pacific Rim trade issues.

June 2012 “Maybe it is just a coincidence that most of the battleground states decided by razor-thin margins in 2008 have been blessed with a No Child Left Behind exemption. “ - Wall Street Journal

As of June 7, 2012 “Six current heavily traveled Cabinet members, have made more than 85 trips this year to electoral battlegrounds such as Colorado, Florida, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio and Pennsylvania, according to a POLITICO review of public speeches and news clippings. Those swing-state visits represent roughly half of all travel for those six Cabinet officials this year.”
 
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