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Thread: The electoral college

  1. #181
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    The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Well heymarket lets look how long it has been successfully in place for starters....... America's election systems have operated smoothly for more than 200
    years because the Electoral College accomplishes its intended purposes. America's presidential election process preserves federalism, prevents electoral chaos by creating definitive electoral outcomes, promotes coalition building among different regions of the country, and prevents tyrannical or unreasonable
    rule. It further protects the freedom of individuals in small and sparsely populated states from the tyranny of the majority in a national election for President. I don't care if you are left, right, up , down or in-between, that should be a concern to all.
    It really depends on how you judge success. While the things you've stated are all laudable I think the gold standard for any election system is how accurately it represents the will of the electorate. I don't think our system has been a resounding success in that regard.

    How exactly does our system in practice promote coalition building or protect sparsely populated states? I'm not seeing that at all. And in any case if that's your gold standard it'd be kind of hard to beat a Parliamentary system.


    Quote Originally Posted by vesper;1062161946
    Contrary to modern perceptions, the founding generation did not intend to create a direct democracy. To the contrary, the Founders deliberately created a republic -- or, arguably, a republican democracy -- that would incorporate a spirit of compromise and deliberation into decision-making. Such a form of government, the Founders believed, would allow them to achieve two potentially conflicting objectives: avoiding the "tyranny of the majority" inherent in pure democratic systems, while allowing the "sense of the people" to be reflected in the new American government. A republican government, organized on federalist principles, would allow the delegates to achieve the most difficult of their tasks by enabling large and small sovereign states to live peacefully alongside each other.

    The author(s) of the Constitution (Madison often called the father of the Constitution) had studied the history of many failed democratic systems, and they wanted to create a different form of government. Indeed, James Madison, delegate from Virginia, argued that unrestrained majorities such as those found in pure democracies tend toward tyranny. Madison stated it this way:

    [B
    [In a pure democracy], [a] common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert results from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.[/B]


    Know the failures of democracies from history, the Founders were still strong advocates for self-government, and they often spoke of the need to allow the will of the people to operate in the new government that they were crafting. "Not withstanding the oppressions & injustice experienced among us from democracy," Virginia delegate George Mason declared ( after experiencing the tyrannical democracy from Mother England), "the genius of the people must be consulted." James Madison agreed. The Electoral College was considered to fit perfectly within this republican, federalist government that had been created. The system would allow majorities to rule, but only while they were reasonable, broad-based, and not tyrannical while allowing all states no matter how small a voice.
    Democracy really has nothing to do with the mechanics of how elections are run. The founders feared direct democracy as you say, that why we have a representative democracy - "elite democracy" in the language of those days - and a Constitution.
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  2. #182
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    Not really true. In 2008 a majority of Obama's 69 million votes came from just 85 counties, all big cities except for a few Maryland suburbs.
    Let us not forget all the places where the turnout was greater than 100%. I don't care if the left or right says there is no fraud. That sort of thing clearly indicates it. Just think how much worse it would be with a popular vote.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  3. #183
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    Re: The electoral college

    I think we need election reform, but I don't like the idea of having the popular vote decide elections. Why? Because the population of some states is extremely high, giving them an advantage and playing into "mob rule". How about not having designated parties (R's and D's)...I'd rather see that kind of election reform.
    Fool me once, shame on you.
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  4. #184
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    The Electoral College is not the issue; the winner take all selection of electors is...
    I agree, but I think they both are an issue, we could give each candidate a proportion of the electors based on the votes they earned in that state, but at the end of the day that is basically a national popular vote.
    In our personal ambitions we are individualists. But in our seeking for economic and political progress as a nation, we all go up or else all go down as one people.
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  5. #185
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Let us not forget all the places where the turnout was greater than 100%. I don't care if the left or right says there is no fraud. That sort of thing clearly indicates it. Just think how much worse it would be with a popular vote.
    There is no proof that any significant voter fraud happened, I mean big stuff, like how Fox claimed there were districts Obama where won every single vote... etc.
    But it wouldn't be any worse, the President won the popular vote in every election except for something like 3 or 4 times. You could argue turnout would increase since people who live in a landslide state would actually bother to vote, but I really don't think we would see many changes except for the cases where the pop vote is won and the electoral college is lost.
    In our personal ambitions we are individualists. But in our seeking for economic and political progress as a nation, we all go up or else all go down as one people.
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  6. #186
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Quite a senseless rant you have going there. No doubt driven by you living in a location that is overpopulated. I've always heard such overcrowding can cause psychosis.
    Yes, because we are like locusts whom, when in large groups, get frenzied.

    The electoral college has no logical validation for its existence. It's there because the Constitution said it should be there and it's a horrible, horrible system.

  7. #187
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by JayGatsby View Post
    I agree, but I think they both are an issue, we could give each candidate a proportion of the electors based on the votes they earned in that state, but at the end of the day that is basically a national popular vote.
    Leading to elections with dozens of candidates of whom nobody scores more than 20%.

  8. #188
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Let us not forget all the places where the turnout was greater than 100%. I don't care if the left or right says there is no fraud. That sort of thing clearly indicates it. Just think how much worse it would be with a popular vote.
    By all means - do present your evidence of election voter fraud. And since it is the states popular vote which determines the states electoral vote winning slate, your proclaimed problem is already there and no change abolishing the EC would make any difference.
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  9. #189
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by JayGatsby View Post
    There is no proof that any significant voter fraud happened,
    Funny, when a (D) wins, the (D)'s say it didn't happen, when a (R) wins the (R)'s say it didn't happen. Until voters on both sides quit playing that silly game and realize the politicians are gaming us, it will continue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    The electoral college has no logical validation for its existence. It's there because the Constitution said it should be there and it's a horrible, horrible system.
    Utter ignorance. Thank you for being part of the reason our country is going down the crapper.


    Lord I wish schools actually educated people like they used to.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  10. #190
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    Re: The electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post

    Utter ignorance. Thank you for being part of the reason our country is going down the crapper.


    Lord I wish schools actually educated people like they used to.
    Ok. Educate me please. Give me 5 reasons, that I can't debunk, for why the electoral college is better than the popular vote and I'll shut up.

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