Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Dude... do you understand what you argued? None of that first block of text addresses it. I wasn't talking about whether religious people can learn. Good lord...

You're attempting to attach a notion of shame to benefiting from the knowledge acquired by others, rather than oneself.

This means you are arguing against learning. :lol:

What is wrong with not asserting some baseless, ignorant opinion about something where no one knows what the answer is? I think it's a virtue not to make baseless claims.

You have no idea what the hell either an agnostic or an atheist are, and you refuse to learn because then you might have to deal with the fact that your feelings about atheists are pretty obviously projection.

At least your consistent. You argue against learning, and even seem to reject it yourself, personally.

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Dont be silly. i dont want you to feel shame and I ALWAYS advocate for learning. I dont care what you believe nor feel (wait...you dont believe and 'feelings' are mere chemical responses and impulses). But your claim is pretty telling. You are person of 'science' but it is the most extraordinarily lazy science known-that research done by others. You want proof prior to belief. Cool. Others can do the work and when something is 'proven' factual, you can then adopt it (minor problem when previous 'knowns' become proven false...but hey...nothing is perfect). Heres the ironic part. Those scientists operate on 'faith' all the time in forming a thesis, postulating, targeting research, etc. They develop a theory, 'believe' the research will prove their theory, and in some cases...voila...'proof'.

I know what an atheist is and an agnostic. Ironically...it seems to be you (and your fellow atheists) that struggle with which 'sect' of atheism you belong to. And laughably...some of you now want to be called a 'religion'.

But its OK...I still love you, no matter what. Like faith, thats a choice also!

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

Dont be silly. i dont want you to feel shame and I ALWAYS advocate for learning. I dont care what you believe nor feel (wait...you dont believe and 'feelings' are mere chemical responses and impulses). But your claim is pretty telling. You are person of 'science' but it is the most extraordinarily lazy science known-that research done by others. You want proof prior to belief. Cool. Others can do the work and when something is 'proven' factual, you can then adopt it (minor problem when previous 'knowns' become proven false...but hey...nothing is perfect). Heres the ironic part. Those scientists operate on 'faith' all the time in forming a thesis, postulating, targeting research, etc. They develop a theory, 'believe' the research will prove their theory, and in some cases...voila...'proof'.

I know what an atheist is and an agnostic. Ironically...it seems to be you (and your fellow atheists) that struggle with which 'sect' of atheism you belong to. And laughably...some of you now want to be called a 'religion'.

But its OK...I still love you, no matter what. Like faith, thats a choice also!

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Learning is lazy? News to me. And I suppose you are a doctor, a biologist, a physicist, an engineer, a programmer, and an artist all rolled into one?

Hold on, aren't you the one claiming to know everything about how the universe works based on an old book?

And I'm lazy? Compared to what?

Here's what you don't really get about being a person who learns about science: I am not invested in what the conclusions are. If, one day, they change, that is fine.

If you think that's how science operates, you haven't the faintest clue what the scientific process is. Step 1 is creating a hypothesis. Step 2 is trying to do everything they can to prove that hypothesis wrong. Science is actually based on a principal of skepticism. At no point in the process are they trying to "defend" their hypothesis. The whole point of having a hypothesis is to have something to attack.

No, you haven't a clue. The delineations were only created in the last decade or two, because of people like you who refused to use already-existent words.

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Learning is lazy? News to me. And I suppose you are a doctor, a biologist, a physicist, an engineer, a programmer, and an artist all rolled into one?

Hold on, aren't you the one claiming to know everything about how the universe works based on an old book?

And I'm lazy? Compared to what?

Here's what you don't really get about being a person who learns about science: I am not invested in what the conclusions are. If, one day, they change, that is fine.

If you think that's how science operates, you haven't the faintest clue what the scientific process is. Step 1 is creating a hypothesis. Step 2 is trying to do everything they can to prove that hypothesis wrong. Science is actually based on a principal of skepticism. At no point in the process are they trying to "defend" their hypothesis. The whole point of having a hypothesis is to have something to attack.

No, you haven't a clue. The delineations were only created in the last decade or two, because of people like you who refused to use already-existent words.

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You are lazy period. You arent 'curious'...you just wait for some form of proof to be given to you by others. That is the ultimate in lazy. And if you think science is all about trying to prove a hypothesis 'wrong' I suggest you spend a little time in the universities. Theorists are driven to be 'right', not 'wrong'. Evolutionists didnt set to prove why NOT...they set out to prove how so. Read any of the literature on the theory of the evolutionary development of complex organs.

And on those things where there is no proven science...well...it must be an interesting life to be completely vapid, waiting for someone to give you 'proof'.

Yes...the definitions and delineations of an 'atheist' are evolving...arent they? Read the descriptions on atheists.org and you will see that evolution in action. Its rather schizophrenic...you are...but you arent...but...you are. Religion? I particularly like this comment..."Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

And on those things where there is no proven science...well...it must be an interesting life to be completely vapid, waiting for someone to give you 'proof'.

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Are you implying that proof is forthcoming from those who claim god exists?

VanceMack said:

"If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

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Heh, that's a pretty good one, actually. :2razz:

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

You are lazy period. You arent 'curious'...you just wait for some form of proof to be given to you by others. That is the ultimate in lazy. And if you think science is all about trying to prove a hypothesis 'wrong' I suggest you spend a little time in the universities. Theorists are driven to be 'right', not 'wrong'. Evolutionists didnt set to prove why NOT...they set out to prove how so. Read any of the literature on the theory of the evolutionary development of complex organs.

And on those things where there is no proven science...well...it must be an interesting life to be completely vapid, waiting for someone to give you 'proof'.

Yes...the definitions and delineations of an 'atheist' are evolving...arent they? Read the descriptions on atheists.org and you will see that evolution in action. Its rather schizophrenic...you are...but you arent...but...you are. Religion? I particularly like this comment..."Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

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So like I said, I suppose you are a doctor, a biologist, a physicist, an engineer, a programmer, and an artist, right? I suppose you invented everything you use on a daily basis?

I suppose you never crack open a book, except the one that tells you how the universe works from the perspective of an ancient tribe that thought the world was flat?

How am I lazy for pursuing knowledge, and you're not when you can't even be bothered to do that?

The religious always deny it, and yet they always argue it: you are anti-intellectual.

So you think science is a conspiracy. I'm not surprised. :roll: This is hardly worth addressing. I've actually watched discussions at the introductions of hypotheses, and let me tell you, they are not very nice. It's like the Spanish Inquisition.

Anyway, "evolutionists" are simply accepting the overwhelming evidence. Hell, we've even watched evolution happen in real time, as species split off and specialize. It's pretty much beyond debate at this point.

No, they aren't evolving. Whereas the concept of lacking belief and the concept of asserting that there are no deities had different words attached to them at one point, that meaning is being lost by disingenuous religious people who either know nothing or are simply trying to drag atheism down to their level, so to speak. And much in the same way people have given up voting third party out of futility, philosophers have given up trying to correct the intentionally disingenuous.

They are all very apt analogies.

Re: Is atheism a religion

Cardinal said:

Are you implying that proof is forthcoming from those who claim god exist?
Heh, that's a pretty good one. :2razz:

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Well...that would depend. If someone is claiming they KNOW beyond doubt that there is a God, then I would say...show me (and they would be hard pressed to do so). If someone says 'I believe or I have faith that there is a God or higher power" then no...you wont see an offering of proof. Any more than you will find from someone that claims they 'believe' the Big Bang theory is the answer to the origins of the cosmos and all manner of material.

And I agree re the second part!

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

Well...that would depend. If someone is claiming they KNOW beyond doubt that there is a God, then I would say...show me (and they would be hard pressed to do so). If someone says 'I believe or I have faith that there is a God or higher power" then no...you wont see an offering of proof. Any more than you will find from someone that claims they 'believe' the Big Bang theory is the answer to the origins of the cosmos and all manner of material.

And I agree re the second part!

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When people tell me that they believe in god out of faith then I've learned enough by this point to just let it go. Sure, there's still a part of my brain that wants to confront them and demand to know what that faith is rationally based on, but after a while you just know to pick your battles. However, it's when religious people tell me they know god exists, that god's existence is inherently obvious or want laws to be made based on their religion, then it's on like Donkey Kong.

Anyway, Vance, you've been around here long enough to know that those who make claims have to support them. Religion claims don't get a pass.

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

So like I said, I suppose you are a doctor, a biologist, a physicist, an engineer, a programmer, and an artist, right? I suppose you invented everything you use on a daily basis?

I suppose you never crack open a book, except the one that tells you how the universe works from the perspective of an ancient tribe that thought the world was flat?

How am I lazy for pursuing knowledge, and you're not when you can't even be bothered to do that?

The religious always deny it, and yet they always argue it: you are anti-intellectual.

So you think science is a conspiracy. I'm not surprised. :roll: This is hardly worth addressing. I've actually watched discussions at the introductions of hypotheses, and let me tell you, they are not very nice. It's like the Spanish Inquisition.

Anyway, "evolutionists" are simply accepting the overwhelming evidence. Hell, we've even watched evolution happen in real time, as species split off and specialize. It's pretty much beyond debate at this point.

No, they aren't evolving. Whereas the concept of lacking belief and the concept of asserting that there are no deities had different words attached to them at one point, that meaning is being lost by disingenuous religious people who either know nothing or are simply trying to drag atheism down to their level, so to speak. And much in the same way people have given up voting third party out of futility, philosophers have given up trying to correct the intentionally disingenuous.

They are all very apt analogies.

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You suppose completely wrong but if it makes you feel better to suppose that...then you should 'believe' it to be true!

Ah...perfect. "Evolution" (not just micro-evolution but macro?) is a proven science then? One that you accept as proven and 'know' it to be true? The evolution of species where not just ONE member of the species miraculously experienced a DNA change, but thousands simultaneously, enough for the genetic mutation to sustain the new life and species? Thats not only theorized but proven? That IS good news!

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

You don't even know what you disagree about. :lol:

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I had the impression we interpret agnosticism and atheism differently. Should that not be the case, then we agree. That would make me feel much better.

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

Atheism IS a baseless position. Its a rather foolish position to boot. You dont believe in God. Fine What DO you believe in?

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Why must one "believe in" something?

What is your foundation of faith (theory) on the origin of the cosmos and the creation of all things?

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You are begging the question there.

Based on evidence one can have a opinion on the origins of everything. But it is just opinion not a belief system that one must wrap their life around.

So as a atheist I have a opinion based on evidence. I do not believe in no god just as those believe in a god do. The assertion that a atheist believes in no god is a very self centered bias that tries to dictate a theists philosophy of reality onto atheists. It is a very intellectually dishonest argument that does nothing for credibility of theists in general. It just makes theists look self centered and as if they were really trying to impress other theists instead of actually engaging atheist in any real conversation much less debate.

Re: Is atheism a religion

Cardinal said:

When people tell me that they believe in god out of faith then I've learned enough by this point to just let it go. Sure, there's still a part of my brain that wants to confront them and demand to know what that faith is rationally based on, but after a while you just know to pick your battles. However, it's when religious people tell me they know god exists, that god's existence is inherently obvious or want laws to be made based on their religion, then it's on like Donkey Kong.

Anyway, Vance, you've been around here long enough to know that those make the claim have to support it. Religion claims don't get a pass.

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People 'choose' their beliefs all the time. People choose to believe in evolution without knowing what exactly they believe in. They choose to believe in the big bang because they want SOMETHING to believe in. People 'choose' love and compassion. Ridiculing people for their 'faith' in a God is fine if it makes one feel better about themselves...but when that same person doing the ridiculing has NO belief system and is themselves a slave to faith...well...it gets kinda funny at that point.

As for religions having to 'prove' their faith...I simply disagree. You cant 'prove' a faith. Belief and faith is a choice. Many people, myself included, have experienced things in our lives that just cant be explained in any other way. Those experiences 'testify' to me...but I dont expect others to understand them or be moved by them. That doesnt mean Im not a huge fan of science, education, and development, nor does it mean I am so arrogant to suggest I 'know' and am 'right'. I 'know' what I believe. Im comfortable with that, just as I am comfortable with those that believe in science (be honest...science THEORY-which is just a different kind of faith) as the origins of life.

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

You suppose completely wrong but if it makes you feel better to suppose that...then you should 'believe' it to be true!

Ah...perfect. "Evolution" (not just micro-evolution but macro?) is a proven science then? One that you accept as proven and 'know' it to be true? The evolution of species where not just ONE member of the species miraculously experienced a DNA change, but thousands simultaneously, enough for the genetic mutation to sustain the new life and species? Thats not only theorized but proven? That IS good news!

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You do know that every individual organism on the planet has mutations, correct? And that they are heritable?

This is genetics 101, dude.

You don't seem to know anything about evolution either.

Re: Is atheism a religion

joG said:

I had the impression we interpret agnosticism and atheism differently. Should that not be the case, then we agree. That would make me feel much better.

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No, we don't. You don't quite understand what agnosticism is. That is not "interpretation."

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

You suppose completely wrong but if it makes you feel better to suppose that...then you should 'believe' it to be true!

Ah...perfect. "Evolution" (not just micro-evolution but macro?) is a proven science then? One that you accept as proven and 'know' it to be true? The evolution of species where not just ONE member of the species miraculously experienced a DNA change, but thousands simultaneously, enough for the genetic mutation to sustain the new life and species? Thats not only theorized but proven? That IS good news!

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So what biological or logical barriers prevent microevolution from becoming macroevolution?

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

The evolution of species where not just ONE member of the species miraculously experienced a DNA change, but thousands simultaneously, enough for the genetic mutation to sustain the new life and species?

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Perhaps you should learn what the theory of evolution really says. Saying "thousands simultaneously" highlights in big bold neon colors that you have a lack of understanding of that which you are arguing against.

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

You do know that every individual organism on the planet has mutations, correct? And that they are heritable?

This is genetics 101, dude.

You don't seem to know anything about evolution either.

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Intraspecies mutation? Of course. Microevolution? You bet...its an easily proven fact. Thats the low hanging fruit.

Now...MACRO evolution and the development of complex organisms? You are offering that as a proven fact?

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

As if you know a damn thing in the world about it. :lol:

Anyway, yours is a pretty lame attempt at a "gotcha." You already know that in casual society people who assert there is no deity are still called atheists, although they didn't used to be in proper philosophy. Philosophy has tried to sort of adjust to this, since the battle of the meaning of English words is already lost, by inventing the terms "positive atheist" and "gnostic atheist" and others.

So, in other words, people like you just don't know what words mean, and yet have this urge to assert ignorant opinions about it. It's the same reason people now believe that agnosticism means "I don't know if there are deities" and people think nihilism is either being emo or believing nothing exists. People are just phenomenally ignorant about philosophy.

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No "gotcha" intended, I asked you a serious question so no need to get offended.

Perhaps, rather than just claiming that everyone else is an idiot, it's just that dictionary definitions take precedence over the musings of the bluestocking crowd of philosophers. That doesn't come down to ignorance so much as prioritization.

Academically, I can see how there is a difference between the claim that there is a lack of evidence in which to believe something and a claim that something simply doesn't exist.

Practically and in the real world, however, such a distinction does not exist. Like I told you before, the human mind doesn't work that way. You either believe that god/gods exist, or you don't... and you make your best judgement based on your past and on the evidence you've examined.

Belief does not equal certainty. Neither does belief require absolute proof.

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

People 'choose' their beliefs all the time. People choose to believe in evolution without knowing what exactly they believe in. They choose to believe in the big bang because they want SOMETHING to believe in. People 'choose' love and compassion. Ridiculing people for their 'faith' in a God is fine if it makes one feel better about themselves...but when that same person doing the ridiculing has NO belief system and is themselves a slave to faith...well...it gets kinda funny at that point.

As for religions having to 'prove' their faith...I simply disagree. You cant 'prove' a faith. Belief and faith is a choice. Many people, myself included, have experienced things in our lives that just cant be explained in any other way. Those experiences 'testify' to me...but I dont expect others to understand them or be moved by them. That doesnt mean Im not a huge fan of science, education, and development, nor does it mean I am so arrogant to suggest I 'know' and am 'right'. I 'know' what I believe. Im comfortable with that, just as I am comfortable with those that believe in science (be honest...science THEORY-which is just a different kind of faith) as the origins of life.

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I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're a "fan of science," but based on everything you've said here I'm pretty sure you don't really know what it is. Science is more than warp speed travel and mad scientists working in a lab filled with tesla coils.

1)So you're a creationist, then. Alright, but I'll just say that I've never once seen a Creationist demonstrate an understanding of what it means.
2)Nobody believes in the Big Bang because they need SOMETHING to believe in. They believe in it because to date it represent the closest approximation of where the universe began. Matter is flying out from a single point, hence the big bang theory. I don't think I've heard anyone claim definitely how it happened, or what was there before it.
2a)further showing you don't know what science is, science doesn't seek to explain "why", but what and how.
3)After all this time you should know what the proper definition of theory is when discussing science. Spoiler alert: it doesn't mean "a hunch or a fuzzy guess."

Re: Is atheism a religion

marduc said:

Perhaps you should learn what the theory of evolution really says. Saying "thousands simultaneously" highlights in big bold neon colors that you have a lack of understanding of that which you are arguing against.

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For a MUTATION to be sustainable it would HAVE to occur with thousands of member of the species in order for it to be sustained over the subsequent generations.

Re: Is atheism a religion

Cardinal said:

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're a "fan of science," but based on everything you've said here I'm pretty sure you don't really know what it means.

1)So you're a creationist, then. Alright, but I'll just say that I've never once seen a Creationist demonstrate an understanding of what it means.
2)Nobody believes in the Big Bang because they need SOMETHING to believe in. They believe in it because to date it represent the closest approximation of where the universe began. Matter is flying out from a single point, hence the big bang theory. I don't think I've heard anyone claim definitely how it happened, or what was there before it.
2a)further showing you don't know what science is, science doesn't seek to explain "why", but what and how.
3)After all this time you should know what the proper definition of theory is when discussing science. Spoiler alert: it doesn't mean "a hunch or a fuzzy guess."

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Right. You 'believe' in the Big bang because its what the current theory holds. Is it proven? Is it 'true'?

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

For a MUTATION to be sustainable it would HAVE to occur with thousands of member of the species in order for it to be sustained over the subsequent generations.

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Look, just wiki it, alright? You don't have to be a biologist with thirty years under your belt to get the gist of it.

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

For a MUTATION to be sustainable it would HAVE to occur with thousands of member of the species in order for it to be sustained over the subsequent generations.

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No, just one. As an analogy this is like claiming that for a forest fire to happen thousands of trees must catch fire at once, or that for an epidemic to occur thousands of people have to simultaneously acquire the disease. It only takes one spark, and the forest fire spreads from there, it only takes one carrier and the epidemic radiates from there. It only takes one individual and the mutation gets passed on to later generations from there.

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

Right. You 'believe' in the Big bang because its what the current theory holds. Is it proven? Is it 'true'?

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It's known that all matter radiated out from a single point.

Re: Is atheism a religion

SmokeAndMirrors said:

No, we don't. You don't quite understand what agnosticism is. That is not "interpretation."

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You see. I do not think you quite understand agnosticism or atheism. At least it did not sound that way. Maybe you would like to explain briefly, what you think it is that I misunderstand? That would be cool.

Re: Is atheism a religion

VanceMack said:

Intraspecies mutation? Of course. Microevolution? You bet...its an easily proven fact. Thats the low hanging fruit.

Now...MACRO evolution and the development of complex organisms? You are offering that as a proven fact?

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Macro evolution is just micro evolution plus time and/or scale. There isn't any meaningful difference between the two. Macro evolution has actually been observed in real time as well. But even if that weren't the case, it isn't necessary in the face of other overwhelming evidence.

You seem to be having a problem with the idea of complex organs. What you don't get is that organs don't simply start that way. They start as something simpler, and the bells and whistles get added as time passes.

Just because you cannot picture what a million $1 bills would look like does not mean it is impossible to have a million $1 bills. Likewise, just because you cannot picture time scale does not mean it doesn't exist.