Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Grendel said:
First of all, it's not a religious belief. It's a scientific belief that a concept so foreign to all known laws of physics can be considered probable. That's not a religious belief. Just because someone else worships the idea of a super-natural gobblin, doesn't make my dismissal of the idea religious (based on their worship).

It's a belief about a religion. Is it demographic (ie, Sunnis live in Anbar)? No? Is it actually about the beliefs themselves? Okay, it's a religious belief.

Wikipedia:

This does not describe the singular belief that there isn't a metaphysical universe ruled by a supernatural monster that's flying around in space.

And the beliefs you hold? They're about that.

Still does not describe a disbelief in things that are extremely improbable.

Describes a belief about them.

Nope, still doesn't do it.

Does it describe a belief about them?

We could go through every reference on language there is, and they'll all say the same thing. If you've redefined the word "religion" to mean "a belief or disbelief in something", you can't expect the rest of the world to start using your new definition just because you're so special.

We can't.

Second of all, a single religious belief is not a religion. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i all believe in the same god, but they're all very different religions. To say that a belief or disbelief in a supernatural entity is, in itself, a religion would mean that those are all just different denominations of teh same religion, which is very far from any standard definition.

Stop. You have a belief about the universe.

I know you feel very strongly that the definition of "religion" you've made up is better than the one the rest of the English-speaking world uses, but that's not really meaningful to anyone but you.

No, it's the same definition. Stop being so scared.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

obvious Child said:
Deism is a watchmaker God, God set in motion things and then left. That's not the same thing as lack of belief in any God. A deist believes in a God, it's just not clear what that God is.

You're mistaking a Deist and a deist. Like confusing Islamism and Islam.

Removable Mind · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Jerry said:
Unadulterated absence of belief in a god is atheism. Do we need to pull the dictionary back out? You don't have to believe in any god to be a member of or practice a deistic religion.

You needed to have the last word...you have it. Good on you, Jerry. I don't need a dictionary to understand the dynamics of your inability to be intellectually honest. May the force be with you, Jerry.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

mbig said:
First, that's not totally true.
We believe, due to Lack of proof, or even Any Evidence, there's isn't/highly-probably-isn't a god.

So you believe there's not a god. That's a belief. About the idea of god....that's what a religious belief is.

If you're agnostic, and you don't claim to know, things get murkier.

IF evidence surfaced of a god (which probably won't happen and probably wouldn't be your 'god', since there are so many), I think I can speak for any atheist in saying we'd be delighted at this amazing development and it would then be demonstrated for us precisely what he's done/doing.

I don't have a god.

Former poster here C Gerstle:
"To call Atheism a religion is to call bald a hair color.

No, it's like calling bald a hair style. And it is.

To be honest, "atheist" is a word that shouldn't even exist. No one has to acknowledge themselves as a "non-alchemist" or "non-astrologist."

But it does. Wouldn't that be nice though, we could just get rid of words we don't like?

The word "atheist" only exists because dogmatists outnumber the skeptics in this case."

Atheists can't be dogmatic?

IOW, Does you Not believing in Astrology make you an active 'believer'/religionist in something else?

It makes me a believer in the idea of astrology being bull****.

No.

Yes. I believe astrology is bull****. That's a belief that I have.

It's only because, as Gerstle says, that people who happen TO believe are in great Majority, that Non-believers even get Painted with the/A word 'Atheist', much less constitute a 'religion'.

It's a religious belief.

Grendel · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
It's a belief about a religion. Stop. You have a belief about the universe.

A "religious belief" is not a belief about religion. It's a belief in religion. Here are some links.

religious belief - definition of religious belief by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Noun 1. religious belief - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destinyreligious belief - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/religious_belief#word=religious belief
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

Religious belief | Define Religious belief at Dictionary.com

noun
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" [syn: religion]

Because the belief is about religion doesn't mean the belief is religious in nature. It may well be a belief about the physical nature of the universe, making it a physics belief, or a belief about the sociological and psychological need for religion, making it a psychological or sociological belief. "Religious" doesn't necessarily describe the nature of the belief, regardless of what the topic of the belief is.

Believing the FSM is not real is not a religious belief. It's a belief about religion, but it is not religious in nature.

OldWorldOrder said:
It's a belief about a religion. Stop. You have a belief about the universe.

Yes, and it's grounded in physics, not in religion. It's a scientific belief, not a religious belief. "Religious belief" does not describe the topic of a belief, but the nature of it.

If you believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, it is most likely a religious belief, meaning that it's based on religion, but it could be evidence based, if you have gotten a great deal of bad information about ecology, biology, chemistry, and physics, then it would be an incorrect scientific belief, not a religious belief.

Or whatever. You don't seem to be open to the idea that you have misdefined something, so I guess that makes your belief about atheism being a religion, a religion, right?

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Grendel said:
A "religious belief" is not a belief about religion. It's a belief in religion. Here are some links.

No, it's not.

religious belief - definition of religious belief by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Noun 1. religious belief - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destinyreligious belief - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/religious_belief#word=religious belief
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

Religious belief | Define Religious belief at Dictionary.com

noun
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" [syn: religion]

The words 'religious' and 'belief' don't take on some different meaning when joined together just because you think it should. Believing that there is not a god is a religious belief. I'm very sorry. I don't know why that bothers you so much, but it's true.

Because the belief is about religion doesn't mean the belief is religious in nature.

That's very true.

It may well be a belief about the physical nature of the universe, making it a physics belief, or a belief about the sociological and psychological need for religion, making it a psychological or sociological belief. "Religious" doesn't necessarily describe the nature of the belief, regardless of what the topic of the belief is.

That's true. But if it's about the absence or existence of a god, it's a religious belief. You have a religious belief. You must now come to terms with that, I guess.

Believing the FSM is not real is not a religious belief. It's a belief about religion, but it is not religious in nature.

Uhhh...if anyone actually does believe it's real, that's a religious belief.

Yes, and it's grounded in physics, not in religion. It's a scientific belief, not a religious belief. "Religious belief" does not describe the topic of a belief, but the nature of it.

lol, no it's not.

If you believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, it is most likely a religious belief, meaning that it's based on religion, but it could be evidence based, if you have gotten a great deal of bad information about ecology, biology, chemistry, and physics, then it would be an incorrect scientific belief, not a religious belief.

There's no science about things beyond the omniverse (if they exist), so it doesn't matter.

Or whatever. You don't seem to be open to the idea that you have misdefined something, so I guess that makes your belief about atheism being a religion, a religion, right?

How ironic. Sure. I don't have the issue that some do here, wherein I whine and cry when it turns out that my belief about religions could be construed as religious. It doesn't bother me, and I'm agnostic. It apparently bothers the **** out of some atheists, though. Do you think it's just that they have a kneejerk reaction to being associated with religion in any way that isn't belligerent towards it?

Sig · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

There are some people for whom belief in a "higher power" is much less an act of will than it is of direct subjective apprehension, perhaps in a manner analogous to how some people are gifted with perfect pitch. Conversely, there are many people (perhaps most people) who are not so gifted and for whom belief in a higher power is dependent upon timely persuasion plus the will to believe. An atheist could be described as someone who either lacks this direct subjective apprehension of a higher power and remains unpersuaded by the reports of others in its existence, or who does possess this direct apprehension but willfully dismisses it as delusional.

mbig · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
So you believe there's not a god. That's a belief. About the idea of god....that's what a religious belief is.

I don't believe astrology either. Is that a 'Religion'?

OWO said:
mbig said:

F evidence surfaced of a god (which probably won't happen and probably wouldn't be your 'god', since there are so many), I think I can speak for any atheist in saying we'd be delighted at this amazing development and it would then be demonstrated for us precisely what he's done/doing.

Click to expand...

I don't have a god.

Wonderful, but that Does NOT answer my statement that IF Evidence of a god emerged, any atheist would be glad to accept it, just like they have has accepted other [factual/evidentiary] "beliefs". You didn't categorically answer, you gratuitously spouted zero.

Therein lies much of your Semantic BS be it unwittting or more likely Disingenuity.
I've made many posts on this, I call it the "Everything is just a belief"... FALLACY.
I believe that there is Evolution. There is/are Millions of pieces of Confirmatory EVIDENCE for this "belief".
In religion, one has BLIND "FAITH" in things NOT IN EVIDENCE.

It's an attempt at False Equivalence to call everything just a "belief".
"See, I believe in god, but you don't" we both just have opinions"
Religion is "Faith" in something that has NO Evidence.
If it had evidence, it might rise to a hypothesis or even Theory, but religion by Definition, is Faith/Blind belief.

In addition to that Fallacy you have compounded your Logic-Fracture by trying to make Every simple 'belief', be it Fact-based or not, into a religion.
Ridiculous BS.

OWO said:
No, it's like calling bald a hair style. And it is.

Not for all and Not the context of the quote. That correct inferred context being if one just has No hair.
More Disingenuity.. attempted/Failed.

OWO said:
mbig said:

To be honest, "atheist" is a word that shouldn't even exist. No one has to acknowledge themselves as a "non-alchemist" or "non-astrologist."

Click to expand...

But it does. Wouldn't that be nice though, we could just get rid of words we don't like?

Another Inane/Dishonest 'reply'.
The Point was the word was a default for people who held No belief and Only assigned them because a majority had a different view.
Again, one doesn't call people "Non-Alchemists" and "non-astrologers".
I hate when people like you ABUSE the multi-quote system/attempt to look categorical but really Deflect/wise-crack.

OWO said:
Yes. I believe astrology is bull****. That's a belief that I have.

and again, is "NOT believing" in astrology a Religion?
OOOOPS

Jerry · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

mbig said:
I don't believe astrology either. Is that a 'Religion'?

Wonderful, but that Does NOT answer my statement that IF Evidence of a god emerged, any atheist would be glad to accept it, just like they have has accepted other [factual/evidentiary] "beliefs". You didn't categorically answer, you gratuitously spouted zero.

Therein lies much of your Semantic BS be it unwittting or more likely Disingenuity.
I've made many posts on this, I call it the "Everything is just a belief"... FALLACY.
I believe that there is Evolution. There is/are Millions of pieces of Confirmatory EVIDENCE for this "belief".
In religion, one has BLIND "FAITH" in things NOT IN EVIDENCE.

It's an attempt at False Equivalence to call everything just a "belief".
"See, I believe in god, but you don't" we both just have opinions"
Religion is "Faith" in something that has NO Evidence.
If it had evidence, it might rise to a hypothesis or even Theory, but religion by Definition, is Faith/Blind belief.

In addition to that Fallacy you have compounded your Logic-Fracture by trying to make Every simple 'belief', be it Fact-based or not, into a religion.
Ridiculous BS.

Not for all and Not the context of the quote. That correct inferred context being if one just has No hair.
More Disingenuity.. attempted/Failed.

Another Inane/Dishonest 'reply'.
The Point was the word was a default for people who held No belief and Only assigned them because a majority had a different view.
Again, one doesn't call people "Non-Alchemists" and "non-astrologers".
I hate when people like you ABUSE the multi-quote system/attempt to look categorical but really Deflect/wise-crack.

and again, is "NOT believing" in astrology a Religion?
OOOOPS

Astology is not a religion. Also, astrology doesn't require faith, it's just symbology.

Grendel · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
The words 'religious' and 'belief' don't take on some different meaning when joined together just because you think it should.

I gave you sources, and you ignored them because the evidence demonstrated that you are incorrect. And yes, "religious" and "belief" do change when you put them together in that order. This is basic, elementary-level English grammar. "Religious" modifies belief. It qualifies the "belief" as being "religious" in nature, not as being "about religion."

And I'm really not going to explain adjectives to you. At this point you've fallen far too short of a basic understanding of the English language for me to believe that you'll ever be able to understand why you are wrong,.

Cephus · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Jerry said:
Astology is not a religion. Also, astrology doesn't require faith, it's just symbology.

Of course it requires faith, it requires faith in the belief that the position of stars and constellations affect the lives of people on Earth.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

mbig said:
I don't believe astrology either. Is that a 'Religion'?

It's a religious belief.

Wonderful, but that Does NOT answer my statement that IF Evidence of a god emerged, any atheist would be glad to accept it, just like they have has accepted other [factual/evidentiary] "beliefs". You didn't categorically answer, you gratuitously spouted zero.

I don't care? Why the **** would I care about god?

Therein lies much of your Semantic BS be it unwittting or more likely Disingenuity.

You're so emotional about being called religious. Hilarious.

I've made many posts on this, I call it the "Everything is just a belief"... FALLACY.
I believe that there is Evolution. There is/are Millions of pieces of Confirmatory EVIDENCE for this "belief".
In religion, one has BLIND "FAITH" in things NOT IN EVIDENCE.

Oh, you call it a fallacy? Must be true, then.

It's an attempt at False Equivalence to call everything just a "belief".
"See, I believe in god, but you don't" we both just have opinions"
Religion is "Faith" in something that has NO Evidence.
If it had evidence, it might rise to a hypothesis or even Theory, but religion by Definition, is Faith/Blind belief.

Who cares? You have a religious belief.

In addition to that Fallacy you have compounded your Logic-Fracture by trying to make Every simple 'belief', be it Fact-based or not, into a religion.
Ridiculous BS.

Every belief about whether or not there's a god, yes.

Not for all and Not the context of the quote. That correct inferred context being if one just has No hair.
More Disingenuity.. attempted/Failed.

Stop. Read that again.

Another Inane/Dishonest 'reply'.

You're so angry.

The Point was the word was a default for people who held No belief and Only assigned them because a majority had a different view.

Do you not hold a belief?

Again, one doesn't call people "Non-Alchemists" and "non-astrologers".

But they could.

I hate when people like you ABUSE the multi-quote system/attempt to look categorical but really Deflect/wise-crack.

Too bad for you, huh?

and again, is "NOT believing" in astrology a Religion?
OOOOPS

Yes. It's a religious stance. Just like you have.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Grendel said:
I gave you sources, and you ignored them because the evidence demonstrated that you are incorrect. And yes, "religious" and "belief" do change when you put them together in that order.

lol no, it doesn't.

This is basic, elementary-level English grammar. "Religious" modifies belief. It qualifies the "belief" as being "religious" in nature, not as being "about religion."

A "religious" "belief". You have one. It's fine. It's not bad. Grow up.

And I'm really not going to explain adjectives to you. At this point you've fallen far too short of a basic understanding of the English language for me to believe that you'll ever be able to understand why you are wrong,.

Oh gosh. How will I ever...

shrubnose · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Xsnake1 said:
Is atheism a religion

Click to expand...

Is religion atheism?

That makes about as much sense as your question.

"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers

Grendel · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
lol no, it doesn't.

A "religious" "belief". You have one. It's fine. It's not bad. Grow up.

Oh gosh. How will I ever...

I rarely see this level of obstinate refusal to even look at the available facts outside of Rush Limbaugh fans. Even when it's explained to you, including dictionary definitions, including a basic explanation of the functional value of the language, you just ignore it all and continue insisting that you're right, even though you have no logic, no language, nothing in favor of your new definitions and your new rules of English grammar.

You're religiously devoted to this incorrect belief about the meaning of the phrase "religious belief". It's like trying to convince a fundamentalist Christian that the earth isn't less than 10,000 years old. No amount of evidence will change his belief.

Here, have a free elementary school education. It would help end your struggle against reality: Adjectives

Cephus · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Grendel said:
I rarely see this level of obstinate refusal to even look at the available facts outside of Rush Limbaugh fans. Even when it's explained to you, including dictionary definitions, including a basic explanation of the functional value of the language, you just ignore it all and continue insisting that you're right, even though you have no logic, no language, nothing in favor of your new definitions and your new rules of English grammar.

You're religiously devoted to this incorrect belief about the meaning of the phrase "religious belief". It's like trying to convince a fundamentalist Christian that the earth isn't less than 10,000 years old. No amount of evidence will change his belief.

Here, have a free elementary school education. It would help end your struggle against reality: Adjectives

There are none so blind as those who stubbornly refuse to see.

obvious Child · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
Nah.

So not only do you refuse to use actual definitions, you rely upon "I say so."

I'm close to just ignoring your posts as you cannot use basic communication skills.

And some don't. Are they nonreligious, then?

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try again Mr. Fallacy

Do you believe there is no god?

Nope. I don't believe there is no God. Your pathetic attempt at labeling has failed from the start and made you look foolish.

Do you believe that?

Do I believe that atheism is a lack of belief in deities at all? Yes. Does that make it a religion? No.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Grendel said:
I rarely see this level of obstinate refusal to even look at the available facts outside of Rush Limbaugh fans.

lol? I'm an Obama voter?

Even when it's explained to you, including dictionary definitions, including a basic explanation of the functional value of the language, you just ignore it all and continue insisting that you're right, even though you have no logic, no language, nothing in favor of your new definitions and your new rules of English grammar.

Uhh...why do you think your english language trumps mine? How odd.

You're religiously devoted to this incorrect belief about the meaning of the phrase "religious belief".

I am. I'm not crying about being called religious, though.

It's like trying to convince a fundamentalist Christian that the earth isn't less than 10,000 years old. No amount of evidence will change his belief.

Talking to you is like that. You;re so sure your religious beliefs are fact. Just like Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc.

Here, have a free elementary school education. It would help end your struggle against reality: Adjectives

lol why are you so mad?

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

obvious Child said:
So not only do you refuse to use actual definitions, you rely upon "I say so."

Did you miss when I used definitions?

I'm close to just ignoring your posts as you cannot use basic communication skills.

That's what true believers do.

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try again Mr. Fallacy

Some do and some don't. Who was the one talking about what 'true' Taoists did? lol it was you. Are you even smart enough for this? This is fun.

Nope. I don't believe there is no God. Your pathetic attempt at labeling has failed from the start and made you look foolish.

What do you believe. Why do you think me asking you a question labeled you as anything: again, are you even smart enough for this? Who labeled you?

Do I believe that atheism is a lack of belief in deities at all? Yes. Does that make it a religion? No.

Of course you think that. That's why you're here.

SORRY TO DISAGREE WITH YOUR TEACHINGS.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Christ. some of you atheists have Jehovah Witness-level logic.

Buck Ewer · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Is atheism a religion ?
No . It's like asking if anarchy is a type of government.
The question itself is absurd.

obvious Child · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
Did you miss when I used definitions?

Defining the word with the word is not a definition. That's saying a particle is defined as a particle. Does that tell us anything useful?

That's what true believers do.

True believers in proper English yes.

Does this definition tell you anything:

Particle:
Noun,

A particle is a particle.

Useful? Not useful?

Some do and some don't. Who was the one talking about what 'true' Taoists did? lol it was you. Are you even smart enough for this? This is fun.

You are trying to get around it by arguing that because some don't, the entire religion doesn't qualify. Merely because you did not say 'true' Taoists does not mean you did not argue it.

What do you believe. Why do you think me asking you a question labeled you as anything: again, are you even smart enough for this? Who labeled you?

I believe there is something up there. What it is and what it does isn't clear. As for your little quips, who's the smarter one, the person who defines a word with the word or the person who uses a definition that actually provides clarity as to what that word means?

Of course you think that. That's why you're here.

SORRY TO DISAGREE WITH YOUR TEACHINGS.

if Atheism is a religion, so is rejecting the notion of wearing orange socks on Wednesdays.

You have to devalue the meaning of religion to include any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of belief to constitute a religion. This makes the discussion pointles.

I have no belief on polkadota shirts in Uzbekistan. Is that a religion? Under your criteria, it is.

obvious Child · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Buck Ewer said:
The question itself is absurd.

You would think so, but a few people here are arguing that any belief, any lack of belief and any rejection of a belief is a religion.

I have a belief that your vase in your avatar picture is ugly. That is now a religion.

Grendel · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

OldWorldOrder said:
lol? I'm an Obama voter?

I made no assumptions about how you do or don't vote, or what your politics are. You imagined that happened. My guess is that you failed to completely process the language you saw, and made assumptions about what it meant. Kind of like this whole "debate" you're trying to have.

OldWorldOrder said:
Uhh...why do you think your english language trumps mine? How odd.

Because the language has been standardized for a very long time. We -- the people of the English-speaking world -- have all agreed on certain rules, meanings and functions. That's called "grammar". My grammar is right. You're is wrong. That's why I think mine trumps yours. I've tried linking you to dictionaries, as well as basic grammar instructions. You seem to think that your opinion is as valid as the entire rest of the English-speaking world's opinion. That's a bit narcissistic, don't you think?

OldWorldOrder said:
I am. I'm not crying about being called religious, though.

[ . . . ]

lol why are you so mad?

Why do you imagine that I'm mad? Is it that your entire effort here is to troll, and, having failed at it, you're trying to imagine a success? I'm not mad that you have problems with the English language. I'm also not crying for you. Those feelings that you believe I have are only happening in your imagination.

OldWorldOrder said:
Talking to you is like that. You;re so sure your religious beliefs are fact. Just like Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc.

You're either trolling or you're incapable of coherent, logical thinking. Either way, you're a waste of time.

OldWorldOrder · Aug 18, 2013

Re: Is atheism a religion

Grendel said:
I made no assumptions about how you do or don't vote, or what your politics are.

You didn't. Did I say you did?

You imagined that happened.

Err... did I?

My guess is that you failed to completely process the language you saw, and made assumptions about what it meant. Kind of like this whole "debate" you're trying to have.

You guessed, huh?

Because the language has been standardized for a very long time. We -- the people of the English-speaking world -- have all agreed on certain rules, meanings and functions. That's called "grammar". My grammar is right. You're is wrong. That's why I think mine trumps yours. I've tried linking you to dictionaries, as well as basic grammar instructions. You seem to think that your opinion is as valid as the entire rest of the English-speaking world's opinion. That's a bit narcissistic, don't you think?

Can you? I depend on dictionaries. So do you do. Apparently literally now means figuratively.

Why do you imagine that I'm mad?

The emotion, mainly.

Is it that your entire effort here is to troll, and, having failed at it, you're trying to imagine a success? I'm not mad that you have problems with the English language. I'm also not crying for you. Those feelings that you believe I have are only happening in your imagination

lol okay

You're either trolling or you're incapable of coherent, logical thinking. Either way, you're a waste of time.

That'd be convenient for you.

Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

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