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Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

Is atheism a religion


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Re: Is atheism a religion

Nope.

Agnosticism is a stance about knowledge and what is knowable. Atheism is practical philosophy. It has nothing to do with what can or cannot be known.

Aren't you splitting hairs now? Here's what you said...

Most atheists don't believe that no god exists.

They simply don't believe claims made by the religious, because there's no evidence for them.

So most atheists don't believe that no god exists.... I'm assuming your double-negative was just bad grammar and what you meant to say was "most atheists do believe in the possibility of a god existing, they just don't believe in religious claims due to the lack of evidence."

Stop me here if I'm wrong. I may just have misunderstood you.

However, that seems like a statement that would suggest that since God's existence is a possibility, and since it's simply down to the evidence (which only adds to our uncertainty), you're really describing agnostics and not atheists.

Atheism is a belief set, I would argue. It's the proactive belief that no god exists.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Your postings suggests you do not even have the most pedestrian grasp of any of the concepts that make up the foundation of the Theory of Evolution much less the finer points it makes.

Especially the fact that you never refute anything said and you run away from long technical posts.

Furthermore, if you truly believe you understand the theory, you shouldn't have any problem convincing PHds in the hard sciences that evolution is false here.

I got a good laugh out of that one. Thanks.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Aren't you splitting hairs now? Here's what you said...

So most atheists don't believe that no god exists.... I'm assuming your double-negative was just bad grammar and what you meant to say was "most atheists do believe in the possibility of a god existing, they just don't believe in religious claims due to the lack of evidence."

Stop me here if I'm wrong. I may just have misunderstood you.

However, that seems like a statement that would suggest that since God's existence is a possibility, and since it's simply down to the evidence (which only adds to our uncertainty), you're really describing agnostics and not atheists.

Atheism is a belief set, I would argue. It's the proactive belief that no god exists.

No. These are two entirely different subjects.

One is about what knowledge is possible. One is about how to live our lives and assess reality based on whatever knowledge we have.

Atheists do not "believe" anything. They simply have not seen compelling evidence of any deity. End of story.

Well, you may "believe" that's what atheism is, but you're mistaken.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Allow me to point out that I didn't make any value judgement on that. I simply stated the fact that said premise is implied as part of the supporting logic to your claim.

The point, lest it be lost, was that "there is no God" is the belief held by most atheists.

If discussing this informally with anyone else (e.g. other atheists) I would consider this to be a perfectly reasonable statement. Only with you I have to remember that "belief" carries a more specific meaning, so I would amend your statement to "'There is no God' is the conclusion reached by many atheists."


I'm not doing any such thing

That's what you keep saying, and then you go and keep doing it.

Who has the burden of proof was never even peripheral to the point I was making.

Again, what I said was that while many atheists believe that God does not exist (this being a positive claim),

Wrong, and you're contradicting yourself since you yourself have already acknowledged that the nonexistence of God is a position arrived at through lack of evidence of his existence, which is not the same thing as coming out and making the positive claim that he doesn't exist. Religious people make the positive claim that he exists, fail to support it in any way, and atheists have responded quite reasonably that until such time as you provide evidence they're not required to accept the claim (or even the possibility) that he exists. You're playing semantic games but they're completely transparent.
they would acknowledge the inherent inability to prove this claim. Which is indisputable.

Again, this is fact, and I made no value judgment on that fact either way. You cannot disprove the existence of God.

That's an irrelevant observation since it's not our job to disprove the existence of god in the first place. It's your job to prove that he does.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

But when we turn that around, anyone who believes in the same theories that alleged atheists do is an atheist as well.

"theory of evolution, the big bag theory and any numerous theories not rooted in a belief of a deity"

Huh.

Therefore, accepting evolution, big bang, gravity, germ, radioactivity and other theories not rooted in a diety makes you an atheist.

Seems that under Rage's criteria there are more atheists then theists.

I hadn't looked at it like that.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No. These are two entirely different subjects.

One is about what knowledge is possible. One is about how to live our lives and assess reality based on whatever knowledge we have.

Atheists do not "believe" anything. They simply have not seen compelling evidence of any deity. End of story.

Well, you may "believe" that's what atheism is, but you're mistaken.


Are you suggesting that an atheist can believe in God?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Are you suggesting that an atheist can believe in God?

No. If they start believing in a god, they stop being an atheist.

However, an atheist is always open to evidence, which could theoretically result in them no longer being atheist.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No, atheism isn't a religion. Although some atheists do their best to turn it into one.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Wrong, and you're contradicting yourself since you yourself have already acknowledged that the nonexistence of God is a position arrived at through lack of evidence of his existence, which is not the same thing as coming out and making the positive claim that he doesn't exist.

Where is the contradiction? You already agreed that most atheists believe God doesn't exist. We're talking about those guys. Are we going back on that now?

Religious people make the positive claim that he exists, fail to support it in any way, and atheists have responded quite reasonably that until such time as you provide evidence they're not required to accept the claim (or even the possibility) that he exists. You're playing semantic games but they're completely transparent.

Completely transparent to whom? I'm not sure where you get these preconceived biases from, but I assure you I'm not playing any games. Religious people do make the positive claim (I'm using popular atheist "lingo" here, but really, is there any other type of claim?) that God does exist. We can agree on that fundamental point.

Atheists don't accept that claim. Fine. My original point (all the way back to when I responded to Smoke And Mirrors) was that the human mind cannot grasp a negative concept. Like if I tell you not to imagine a pink elephant, you will naturally imagine a pink elephant.

I made a leap, based on how we know the human mind works, to suggest that atheists in fact do more than disbelieve God due to lack of evidence, they most likely believe that God does not exist.

They do so because the human mind can ONLY work with "positive claims," as you would call them. We can't conceive of "not elephants," we can only imagine elephants.

My final point was that this belief - that God does not exist - cannot be proved. This is also fact.

That's an irrelevant observation since it's not our job to disprove the existence of god in the first place. It's your job to prove that he does.

Why is that my "job," and why do I get the feeling the check is going to bounce? Neither side is obligated to prove anything to the other. Atheism or theism are simply matters of faith, neither is superior from that standpoint and neither has a higher burden of proof.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No. If they start believing in a god, they stop being an atheist.

However, an atheist is always open to evidence, which could theoretically result in them no longer being atheist.

You don't see the flaw in your logic here?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

You don't see the flaw in your logic here?

No, it makes perfect sense. Atheism is not dogmatic, it is always open to new evidence and an evaluation of new findings and claims, just like science is. If someone were to find objective evidence that a god actually existed, I'd believe in it and stop being an atheist.

Is there something confusing in there for you?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Kind of funny that we're going back and forth.... that there's so much discussion around a simple definition that a grade-schooler would know: Atheists don't believe in God.

Not sure why anyone would look to convolute that. Intriguing.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Not a religion, but today's atheism is certainly a social agenda.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No, it makes perfect sense. Atheism is not dogmatic, it is always open to new evidence and an evaluation of new findings and claims, just like science is. If someone were to find objective evidence that a god actually existed, I'd believe in it and stop being an atheist.

Is there something confusing in there for you?

Not confusing.... just wrong.

You can say science is open to new findings and claims.... fine. That's fair enough, but it's also totally not the point.

Atheism is defined as the theory or belief that God does not exist. If you, swayed by the overwhelming evidence, were to suddenly start believing in God, that wouldn't redefine atheism, it would simply mean you would cease to be an atheist.

In that way, atheism is quite dogmatic. The word is intended to describe a fluid subset of people who do not currently believe in the existence of God. You can jump in and out of that subset depending on your beliefs at the time.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Not confusing.... just wrong.

You can say science is open to new findings and claims.... fine. That's fair enough, but it's also totally not the point.

Atheism is defined as the theory or belief that God does not exist. If you, swayed by the overwhelming evidence, were to suddenly start believing in God, that wouldn't redefine atheism, it would simply mean you would cease to be an atheist.

In that way, atheism is quite dogmatic. The word is intended to describe a fluid subset of people who do not currently believe in the existence of God. You can jump in and out of that subset depending on your beliefs at the time.

You can sit around and repeat that nonsense all you want, you can have a big old parade if you wish, but your definition is still wrong. All the bitching and whining and complaining in the world isn't going to change that.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

You can sit around and repeat that nonsense all you want, you can have a big old parade if you wish, but your definition is still wrong. All the bitching and whining and complaining in the world isn't going to change that.

No, that's actually the dictionary definition of atheism. Look it up.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No, that's actually the dictionary definition of atheism. Look it up.

It's *HALF* of the dictionary definition. You just ignore the other half of "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

Done beating your strawman yet?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

It's *HALF* of the dictionary definition. You just ignore the other half of "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

Done beating your strawman yet?

Are you still trying to win? Good lord. How embarrassing for you.

What does one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God do? He believes that God does not exist.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Are you still trying to win? Good lord. How embarrassing for you.

What does one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God do? He believes that God does not exist.

Um... yeah... pardon me while I just back away slowly, I don't waste my time on the terminally delusional.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Um... yeah... pardon me while I just back away slowly, I don't waste my time on the terminally delusional.

Sometimes you can only shake your head in disbelief!
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Um... yeah... pardon me while I just back away slowly, I don't waste my time on the terminally delusional.

Well, wherever you end up slinking back to, pick yourself up a copy of Webster's Dictionary, it'll help you out in the future.

In particular, take a look at the word "denial," because I think that could open your eyes.
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

Butthurt about the Obama thread, eh Manc?

No. There's no reason to be so.

Here's an eye-opener for you, in the definitions stakes.

Noun 1. disbelief - doubt about the truth of something
disbelief - doubt about the truth of something
incredulity, mental rejection, skepticism
doubt, doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, incertitude, uncertainty - the state of being unsure of something

2. disbelief - a rejection of belief
disbelief - a rejection of belief
unbelief
cognitive content, mental object, content - the sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned
scepticism, skepticism, agnosticism - the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge
atheism - a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

Doubting the truth of something doesn't mean believing something else, mch like lacking a belief in something doesn't mean belief in something else.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No. There's no reason to be so.

Here's an eye-opener for you, in the definitions stakes.

Noun 1. disbelief - doubt about the truth of something
disbelief - doubt about the truth of something
incredulity, mental rejection, skepticism
doubt, doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, incertitude, uncertainty - the state of being unsure of something

2. disbelief - a rejection of belief
disbelief - a rejection of belief
unbelief
cognitive content, mental object, content - the sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned
scepticism, skepticism, agnosticism - the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge
atheism - a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

Doubting the truth of something doesn't mean believing something else, mch like lacking a belief in something doesn't mean belief in something else.


Uh huh.

So I don't believe the Queen of England wears a wig. However, that doesn't mean I believe the queen doesn't wear a wig.

I'm a skeptic. If some evidence were to surface showing that the queen in fact wears a wig, I, a disbeliever in the queen's wig-wearing (but that doesn't mean that I believe she doesn't wear one, mind you), would then be forced to change my affiliation on the matter.

Of course, there's nothing absurd or ridiculous about this line of reasoning.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Most atheists don't believe that no god exists.

They simply don't believe claims made by the religious, because there's no evidence for them.

Rejecting someone else's positive claim is not a belief.

That would make them agnostic, not atheist.
 
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