View Poll Results: Is atheism a religion

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Thread: Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

  1. #891
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    No pun intended, but "MY GOD"...we have centuries of history that is explicit about the horrors of having a sectarian type government or at least a government, which is significantly influenced by religion.

    What in the hell is so hard to understand about these horrible times in history? That's why we need FREE THINKERS being leaders of a secular government so that future generations never repeat such terrible events.

    Thanks, Cephus....
    Yet it's these very people who want to get back to the "good old days" where their religion was in charge. They don't see those days as horrible, but preferable. My sig still holds true, there isn't any demonstrably true thing that religion provides the world that cannot be achieved, as well or better, through purely secular means. It's a good thing that religion is falling apart worldwide, within a few decades, it will hold little if any political or social power.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #892
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yet it's these very people who want to get back to the "good old days" where their religion was in charge. They don't see those days as horrible, but preferable. My sig still holds true, there isn't any demonstrably true thing that religion provides the world that cannot be achieved, as well or better, through purely secular means. It's a good thing that religion is falling apart worldwide, within a few decades, it will hold little if any political or social power.
    Well, the reality is...everything was, is, and will be always achieved by secular means...despite people who don't understand or refuse to believe that their origin is secular and that they exist in a secular universe. Noticed I said "the reality is". That's where I live. Until a different reality makes itself known, not only to me, but to the rest of the planet...then that's where I'll remain to live.

    I simply can't, don't and won't compute the sectarian universe or any of it's players. I can't commit time, important time, limited time at that, being devoted to sorting out claims people make that they themselves define as unknowable...or even agree on.

  3. #893
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    First hand example of the Athists' ideology to attempt to eliminate religion from gov't. Again, not what the Framers had in mind.
    "eliminate all religion from government" isn't a part of atheism. It may or may not be true that most atheists want that, but that's not requisite for atheism. As I stated before, I've known some people associated with the neoconservative movement who are atheists that want more religion in government, because it gives them a lot of power.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    Not gonna comment on this tripe. Don't think atheists actively want to remove religion from gov't? I've got a lake I want to sell you in Arizona.
    Again, that's not a part of atheism. That's a political belief associated with the American form of government; secularism. Not all atheists are secularists, and not all secularists are atheists. Most may be, but it's a separate concern.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

  4. #894
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    "eliminate all religion from government" isn't a part of atheism. It may or may not be true that most atheists want that, but that's not requisite for atheism. As I stated before, I've known some people associated with the neoconservative movement who are atheists that want more religion in government, because it gives them a lot of power.



    Again, that's not a part of atheism. That's a political belief associated with the American form of government; secularism. Not all atheists are secularists, and not all secularists are atheists. Most may be, but it's a separate concern.
    As an atheist...and I know a lot of atheists...none of which would EVER subscribe to government being a little infused with religious influence....much less more. If you know somebody who claims that belief, THEY ARE NOT ATHEISTS!

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    As an atheist...and I know a lot of atheists...none of which would EVER subscribe to government being a little infused with religious influence....much less more. If you know somebody who claims that belief, THEY ARE NOT ATHEISTS!
    I do. I live in the DC area and know some people involved in politics. I'm thinking specifically of one person who is affiliated with neoconservatives. He said very directly that he doesn't think the general population is smart enough to make decisions, and needs to be led by a strong Republican government, and that incorporating religion into politics gives them a strong hand for controlling their voters.

    That individual -- and the political movement he was associated with -- are very Machiavellian. I've heard the same from others in that political movement, but none so clearly as that one. Most of history is filled with Noble's who have no interest in religion but claim direct decendency from gods and saints and angels.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    That's a very, very, very dead argument. DUH! Madison said that he had seen the blood stains on all of Europe caused by hundreds of years religion's need to either act as government or have strong influence of religion.

    If you think Madison was a proponent of religion being a strong component of government...man...you do need to go back to school yourself...and one that teaches the truth about our government's history...along with a heavy dose of science.

    I'm sure you believe Washington chopped down the cherry tree and couldn't lie to his dad about it.

    If separation of church and state doesn't mean devoid of church influence on the state...then we'd be right back where Europe was for hundreds of years.

    When you want to elect a real Muslim...not a made up Muslim...who want's Islam taught in public schools over catholicism or other western religions...call me up and we'll have a chat. Cuz I don't think I'd ever see that day coming from you...and I don't even know you.
    Re read this link Is James Madison Still Speaking to Us About Religious Freedom? - VFH – Virginia Foundation for the Humanities
    about the guy (Madison), that first mentioned religious freedoms in a Virginia document, and was the driving force for religious freedoms in the US Constitution.
    I don't know where you're getting your info, or who you're referring to. Is it Jefferson? Provide a link that states what you've posted is about Madison.

    Why does it matter if it's Madison, or Jefferson, or some other Forefather's opinion of religion in gov't? Probably because Madison first used the phrase religious freedoms in the Virginia Commonwealth Declaration of Rights written before the US Constitution. Probably because different forefathers had different definitions of religious freedoms. Jefferson, for example, wanted government devoid of religion. He was a forefather of the US who instigated the separation of church and state philosophy regarding religion. Madison said no to this while he had a say. While the US Constitution was being written.

    A particular presidential candidate of the nascent US stated: (it's in the Madison link about religious freedoms and the Constitution I provided) as long as there's no churches or synagogues in, for example, Saudi Arabia, there shouldn't be any mosques in America. As the US Constitution was being written, Madison said no to this. Some Forefathers of America wanted to tax religions to help pay for the Revolutionary War debt. As the US Constitution was being written, Madison said no to this.

    Who were you referring to, Removable Mind, with your post, and show proof.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    Re read this link Is James Madison Still Speaking to Us About Religious Freedom? - VFH – Virginia Foundation for the Humanities
    about the guy (Madison), that first mentioned religious freedoms in a Virginia document, and was the driving force for religious freedoms in the US Constitution.
    I don't know where you're getting your info, or who you're referring to. Is it Jefferson? Provide a link that states what you've posted is about Madison.

    Why does it matter if it's Madison, or Jefferson, or some other Forefather's opinion of religion in gov't? Probably because Madison first used the phrase religious freedoms in the Virginia Commonwealth Declaration of Rights written before the US Constitution. Probably because different forefathers had different definitions of religious freedoms. Jefferson, for example, wanted government devoid of religion. He was a forefather of the US who instigated the separation of church and state philosophy regarding religion. Madison said no to this while he had a say. While the US Constitution was being written.

    A particular presidential candidate of the nascent US stated: (it's in the Madison link about religious freedoms and the Constitution I provided) as long as there's no churches or synagogues in, for example, Saudi Arabia, there shouldn't be any mosques in America. As the US Constitution was being written, Madison said no to this. Some Forefathers of America wanted to tax religions to help pay for the Revolutionary War debt. As the US Constitution was being written, Madison said no to this.

    Who were you referring to, Removable Mind, with your post, and show proof.
    Baahgeeebus, man...surley you....

    “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    I do. I live in the DC area and know some people involved in politics. I'm thinking specifically of one person who is affiliated with neoconservatives. He said very directly that he doesn't think the general population is smart enough to make decisions, and needs to be led by a strong Republican government, and that incorporating religion into politics gives them a strong hand for controlling their voters.

    That individual -- and the political movement he was associated with -- are very Machiavellian. I've heard the same from others in that political movement, but none so clearly as that one. Most of history is filled with Noble's who have no interest in religion but claim direct decendency from gods and saints and angels.
    I don't think neoconservatives are smart enough to make decisions either, and the nation needs to be led by ME!
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    Re read this link Is James Madison Still Speaking to Us About Religious Freedom? - VFH – Virginia Foundation for the Humanities
    about the guy (Madison), that first mentioned religious freedoms in a Virginia document, and was the driving force for religious freedoms in the US Constitution.
    I don't know where you're getting your info, or who you're referring to. Is it Jefferson? Provide a link that states what you've posted is about Madison.

    Why does it matter if it's Madison, or Jefferson, or some other Forefather's opinion of religion in gov't? Probably because Madison first used the phrase religious freedoms in the Virginia Commonwealth Declaration of Rights written before the US Constitution. Probably because different forefathers had different definitions of religious freedoms. Jefferson, for example, wanted government devoid of religion. He was a forefather of the US who instigated the separation of church and state philosophy regarding religion. Madison said no to this while he had a say. While the US Constitution was being written.

    A particular presidential candidate of the nascent US stated: (it's in the Madison link about religious freedoms and the Constitution I provided) as long as there's no churches or synagogues in, for example, Saudi Arabia, there shouldn't be any mosques in America. As the US Constitution was being written, Madison said no to this. Some Forefathers of America wanted to tax religions to help pay for the Revolutionary War debt. As the US Constitution was being written, Madison said no to this.

    Who were you referring to, Removable Mind, with your post, and show proof.
    "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

  10. #900
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Here's a link attempting to identify many (not all) quotes about religion and gov't and separation of church and state attributed to James Madison:
    James Madison His Writings

    The question is, to me at least, what is the context of those quotes made by Madison concerning religion and gov't and separation of church and state?

    How do you explain this quote of Madison, then, Removable Mind?
    ". . . Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which pervades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there cannot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest."—spoken at the Virginia convention on ratification of the Constitution, June 17781
    Did Madison think it preferable that religion is allowed in American society? Is the current definition of separation of church and state what Madison had in mind when he penned separation of church and state?

    What is the meaning of this quote attributable to Madison?
    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."—-A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, 1785 2
    IMO, Madison's stating that Christianity, when given 'state status', corrupts the religion absolutely, and oppresses the people absolutely.. and is bad....

    How does one reconcile those, for example, two statements of Madison's on religion? IMO, no one religion should have state status, and people should be able to worship as they please? You do realize this is NOTHING like the current definition of the separation of church and state... that state should be DEVOID of religion...
    IMO, Madison would be saying that the state, when disallowing someone from practicing their own religion (even in a gov't context), is not keeping to the intent of the religion portion of the first amendment.

    Since Madison is the driver for the religion portion of the 1st amendment in the Constitution, and Madison's stated in many contexts and venues that people in America should be allowed to practice their own religion's beliefs, how has the definition of the separation of the church and state been bastardized - to mean gov't should be DEVOID of religion? Where and when was the amendment to the religion portion of the first amendment made?

    Footnote 1 2: taken from http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/m...s_writings.htm
    Last edited by cabse5; 08-29-13 at 01:11 PM.

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