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Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

Is atheism a religion


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Re: Is atheism a religion

If the proposition is "God exists" you might hold a strong belief in its veracity, no belief in its veracity, or any level in between.

That seems very different than what you said before. "you either believe it or you don't." A level of belief in between would neither be believing it does exist nor believing it doesn't.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

By defining religion atheism does not fit.

religion- The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

Atheists do not recognize a superhuman controlling power especially a personal God or gods.

The end.

Amazing 16 pages later and some are still looking at an orange and trying to make it into an apple.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

But having no belief in it's veracity does not mean you have a strong belief in the opposite proposition.
Yes, precisely. Many Buddhists fall into this category - they do not believe in God, but do not hold a strong belief the other way. To them, it's not a terribly important question, so some may say "probably not, but what does it matter" and others might say "there probably is something out there bigger than me, but what does it matter."
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

I'm not talking about concepts, I'm talking about simple propositions (many of which may make up a single concept). The proposition "God exists" is either true or false - and yes, just by knowing it you'll assign some level of belief.

Well, actually...there's another option, which would fall under the category of agnostic's answer, and that is, "I don't know." And actually an agnostic might answer "false".

Atheists simply have an absence of belief. For an atheist..."god" just doesn't compute..."god" isnt a logical conclusion to the question of "who or what created the universe". So in my opinion, the proposition doesn't require an admission of a belief. There's nothing to believe or disbelieve.

Would you ponder the proposition: "The Easter Bunny Exists" TRUE____FALSE____.

I bet that the easter bunny just doesn't compute to you...or it's not logical...so you don't feel the need to determine whether it's true or false...or even say, "I don't know". In your mind...there's nothing to consider...because there's nothing to believe or disbelieve. An easter bunny to you is a fantasy/fictitious character in a child's mind. It doesn't require the time or energy to form a belief one way or another.

But in the end, when a proposition or question is asked like you one you posed...an atheist would most likely be forced to say, "False" or "No" or "I don't believe god exist" for the sake of brevity. It's rarely worth the trouble trying to make a person understand why one is an atheist.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Nay, even that school which is most accused of atheism doth most demonstrate religion; that is, the school of Leucippus and Democritus and Epicurus. For it is a thousand times more credible, that four mutable elements, and one immutable fifth essence, duly and eternally placed, need no God, than that an army of infinite small portions, or seeds unplaced, should have produced this order and beauty, without a divine marshal. The Scripture saith, The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God; it is not said, The fool hath thought in his heart; so as he rather saith it, by rote to himself, as that he would have, than that he can thoroughly believe it, or be persuaded of it. For none deny, there is a God, but those, for whom it maketh that there were no God. It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip, than in the heart of man, than by this; that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted in it, within themselves, and would be glad to be strengthened, by the consent of others. Nay more, you shall have atheists strive to get disciples, as it fareth with other sects. And, which is most of all, you shall have of them, that will suffer for atheism, and not recant; whereas if they did truly think, that there were no such thing as God, why should they trouble themselves?

Essays of Francis Bacon - Of Atheism (The Essays or Counsels, Civil and Moral, of Francis Ld. Verulam Viscount St. Albans)
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

That seems very different than what you said before. "you either believe it or you don't." A level of belief in between would neither be believing it does exist nor believing it doesn't.
Oh, sorry - that was in response to the idea of someone holding "no belief." But I do think it's either one way or the other, the difference being that someone can have very strong beliefs or very weak "probably true" or "probably false" beliefs

We can conceptualize a space in between where the person is completely neutral and objective, but if our brains really worked that way there would be no need to learn logic or critical thinking skills - it would all come naturally. I know that there is no rational basis for believing that invisible unicorns don't exist (or exist) - but while I can claim to believe this until I'm blue in the face, the truth is that I really don't - I don't believe in invisible unicorns.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Well, actually...there's another option, which would fall under the category of agnostic's answer, and that is, "I don't know." And actually an agnostic might answer "false".
Agnostics might answer lots of things, but what a person professes to believe or wants to believe is often not consistent with what they truly believe.

Would you ponder the proposition: "The Easter Bunny Exists" TRUE____FALSE____.

I bet that the easter bunny just doesn't compute to you...or it's not logical...so you don't feel the need to determine whether it's true or false...or even say, "I don't know". In your mind...there's nothing to consider...because there's nothing to believe or disbelieve. An easter bunny to you is a fantasy/fictitious character in a child's mind. It doesn't require the time or energy to form a belief one way or another.

But in the end, when a proposition or question is asked like you one you posed...an atheist would most likely be forced to say, "False" or "No" or "I don't believe god exist" for the sake of brevity. It's rarely worth the trouble trying to make a person understand why one is an atheist.
I think I get the point you're making, and agree to an extent - I prefaced my comments earlier by saying that this applies to people who understand the proposition and have actually had an opportunity to "process" it.

Still, even if I were to provide you with a proposition for which you have no real way to judge its veracity - the Honduras diver beetle lives longer than any other beetle - you will STILL assign some level of belief based on how credible you think I am, how accurate you believe these sorts of facts to be in general, etc.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

I don't think atheism can be called "a lack of belief." Atheists are strong believers in a list of things including:

- There is no intelligent creator
- In some cases, people of faith should have limited rights with respect to speech, participation in government and the rearing of their children
- Conclusive views on the random nature of origin of life

Whoa, back up. Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in a supreme deity. That's it. Of course atheists may have political and ideological beliefs about religious freedoms, or lack thereof, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism. I am an atheist. I believe freedom of religion is the foundation upon which this country is based, and is sacrosync... all religions. I have political and ideological opinions about enforcing the beliefs of any religion on all of society, in the same manner that Christians would object to being subjected to enforced Muslim or Jewish on all of society. That has nothing to do with my lack of belief in a supreme deity.

Atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of belief in a supreme deity, that is all. Any other opinions and ideologies formed about the society in which we live are derived the same way any religious person's opinions and ideology is derived; by our personal opinion on various issues, personal morality on various issues, and our personal views of right and wrong.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

In my honest opinion atheism could be better described as a rational rejection of the supernatural, rather than a religion.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Agnostics might answer lots of things, but what a person professes to believe or wants to believe is often not consistent with what they truly believe.


I think I get the point you're making, and agree to an extent - I prefaced my comments earlier by saying that this applies to people who understand the proposition and have actually had an opportunity to "process" it.

Still, even if I were to provide you with a proposition for which you have no real way to judge its veracity - the Honduras diver beetle lives longer than any other beetle - you will STILL assign some level of belief based on how credible you think I am, how accurate you believe these sorts of facts to be in general, etc.



Taylor, I guess we've hit an impasse...as I do understand your point, however, that only takes me back to:

Let me try again. In my opinion, the absence of a belief is the way to frame my "belief system " regarding a god or creator of the universe. And that is comment sounds almost like, if not completely like, an oxymoron.

However...

My answer "False" to your proposition isn't an admission of a belief when, in my humble opinion, the answer options list for the proposition is incomplete. The list should contain TRUE - FALSE - I DON'T KNOW - GOD WHO?

If I had my ruthers...I'd simply answer, "God Who?", if it were on your answer options. But in the real world, people wouldn't let it go at that and want some more explicit answer. And I'd have to say: For truth atheists...god just doesn't compute. :shrug:

Okay, Taylor, I've pretty much beaten my side of the dead horse smooth off.

Thanks...
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Whoa, back up. Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in a supreme deity. That's it. Of course atheists may have political and ideological beliefs about religious freedoms, or lack thereof, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism. I am an atheist. I believe freedom of religion is the foundation upon which this country is based, and is sacrosync... all religions. I have political and ideological opinions about enforcing the beliefs of any religion on all of society, in the same manner that Christians would object to being subjected to enforced Muslim or Jewish on all of society. That has nothing to do with my lack of belief in a supreme deity.

Atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of belief in a supreme deity, that is all. Any other opinions and ideologies formed about the society in which we live are derived the same way any religious person's opinions and ideology is derived; by our personal opinion on various issues, personal morality on various issues, and our personal views of right and wrong.

Wicca is a religion and they don't believe in a supreme being. From what I understand witches believe in subordinate beings.

My definition of religion isn't the belief in a supreme being but rather the exploitation of a belief system, sometimes led by very religious leaders who might be atheists/hypocrites. When Jesus was on the earth just about all of his conflict with humans were with religious people. Religion by my definition is about advancing a culture often for the the purposes of self pomotion and/or controlling others, which is a counterfeit of true faith. I do not consider myself to be religious. I don't consider Jesus to be religious. Faith in God and being religious are by my definition, not the same thing. Freedom and government by the consent of the governed is also not the same as being a political hack, to offer a comparison.
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

Yes, precisely. Many Buddhists fall into this category - they do not believe in God, but do not hold a strong belief the other way. To them, it's not a terribly important question, so some may say "probably not, but what does it matter" and others might say "there probably is something out there bigger than me, but what does it matter."

Alright then, I guess I misunderstood you. Buddhism is, in a lot of ways, a philosophy, not a religion, there are lots of people who accept portions of it that are wholly non-supernatural and I don't have much problem with that at all.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Is Atheism a religion? I don't know.....on one one hand, they don't believe in a deity....so...that would lead.me to say no.

On the other hand.....some of them believe in their non-belief so much that it's almost evangelical. So that would lead me to say yes.

I say....I don't know.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

They do believe in the supernatural as well as what we'd consider deities, even if they aren't supreme.

Understood, but I was answering the assertion that "religion" means belief in a supreme being.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Understood, but I was answering the assertion that "religion" means belief in a supreme being.

But if we only look at supreme deities, that removes Buddhism, Shinto and a bunch of other religions that have "gods" but not supreme gods as religions.

Buddhism not a religion? That's pretty silly.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Is Atheism a religion? I don't know.....on one one hand, they don't believe in a deity....so...that would lead.me to say no.

On the other hand.....some of them believe in their non-belief so much that it's almost evangelical. So that would lead me to say yes.

I say....I don't know.

That's a bit ridiculous. Are fanatical sports fans religious? Being fanatical has nothing to do with religion.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

That's a bit ridiculous. Are fanatical sports fans religious? Being fanatical has nothing to do with religion.

When it comes to deities, or the lack thereof? I think it's debatable.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Is Atheism a religion? I don't know.....on one one hand, they don't believe in a deity....so...that would lead.me to say no.

On the other hand.....some of them believe in their non-belief so much that it's almost evangelical. So that would lead me to say yes.

I say....I don't know.

If it is just people believing in their belief fanatically, that would open up many things like political followers and sports fans to be religions. I don't really see how atheism could be seen as a religion. Other than the lack of belief in God it has no unifying principles or organization. To be an atheist you don't even have to believe in the Big Bang or evolution. You could even believe in a flat earth.

There are certainly fanatical atheists who go way to far in their disbelief, but you could say the same for almost anything. Those people do not make atheism a religion.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

If it is just people believing in their belief fanatically, that would open up many things like political followers and sports fans to be religions. I don't really see how atheism could be seen as a religion. Other than the lack of belief in God it has no unifying principles or organization. To be an atheist you don't even have to believe in the Big Bang or evolution. You could even believe in a flat earth.

There are certainly fanatical atheists who go way to far in their disbelief, but you could say the same for almost anything. Those people do not make atheism a religion.

Well....in that case, could you call deism a "religion"?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No. Because what you fail to realize is that atheism is not dogmatic. Atheism, in the deity debate, is basically just a placeholder where knowledge does not presently exist.

You're thinking of atheism as a religion. It isn't.

I don't think atheism is a religion, in the sense that part of what defines a religion is a belief in God. That's the simple answer.

The longer, and perhaps better, answer would begin by trying to define what a god is. If a god is defined as something superhuman that creates and controls the universe, then isn't nature itself a god? Isn't the universe a god?

As such, if you bow to the clockwork of nature (science), aren't you in a sense practicing a religion?

However, like I said, that's a bit heady, and knowing how the word is commonly used, atheism is NOT a religion because you don't believe in God. Simple.

Now, that said, it IS a belief system, because "negative" beliefs simply don't exist. It's the pink elephant problem (try to not imagine a pink elephant, and you immediately imagine a pink elephant).

It's just one of those things about the human mind... we can't think in negatives.

Now, you might be able to convince me that the abstract concept of "atheism" can deal with this gray area, but you'll never convince me that atheists, being human beings, are devoid of any beliefs on the subject of the supernatural.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

If you make, as you say, the "positive" claim that there is a god, then you are obligated to substantiate it. If you don't believe that's your obligation then a debate forum is clearly not the place for you.



Non-theism is not a matter of faith, it's imply not being theistic. And as to the claim that there is no god, that isn't a matter of faith either as it's simply a response that evidence for the claim that god exists hasn't been offered.



The claim that a thing exists has the burden of proof. If you don't understand this point then you are confused as to what type of forum you are currently participating in.


The whole burden of proof debate is tiresome. Haven't you atheists "evolved" beyond that yet? It's the same thing Richard Dawkins was spitting out 30 years ago.

Look, debate forum or no, nobody is required to substantiate their faith to anyone else because religion is a personal matter.

I didn't want to get dragged in to this old debate on burden of proof, but look. Let's view this logically. Let's begin with two statements....

A.) There is no God
B.) God/gods exists.

We know that one of the above is true, that is fact. But which is it, A or B? Which is truth? In fact, we can't find enough evidence to prove either claim. Thus, belief in either is a matter of faith.

This is a fact and you cannot dispute it.

Now I realize you would like to unload the entire burden of proof on the religious (making us have to prove claim B while you do not have to prove claim A), however, that just ain't gonna happen.
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

The whole burden of proof debate is tiresome. Haven't you atheists "evolved" beyond that yet? It's the same thing Richard Dawkins was spitting out 30 years ago.

Look, debate forum or no, nobody is required to substantiate their faith to anyone else because religion is a personal matter.

I didn't want to get dragged in to this old debate on burden of proof, but look. Let's view this logically. Let's begin with two statements....

A.) There is no God
B.) God exists.

We know that one of the above is true, that is fact. But which is it, A or B? Which is truth? In fact, we can't find enough evidence to prove either claim. Thus, belief in either is a matter of faith.

This is a fact and you cannot dispute it.

Now I realize you would like to unload the entire burden of proof on the religious (making us have to prove claim B while you do not have to prove claim A), however, that just ain't gonna happen.

Option C

C) there are many gods

D) there is a goddess
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Option C

C) there are many gods

D) there is a goddess

Neither atheism nor Buddhism have a god, ergo not religions. Philosophies. Perhaps some religions prefer androgenous gods.
 
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