View Poll Results: Is atheism a religion

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Thread: Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

  1. #231
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Actually in many European countries, the standard is "guilty until proven innocent." Still, it's not "fantastically easy" to put innocent people in jail.

    However, the metaphor is a bad one. You can't compare a court of law, in which at the end of the day, the judge/jury have to make a "best call," to a debate dealing in absolute logic.

    You might believe OJ Simpson was not guilty, but you can never prove he was not guilty. Likewise, you can never prove that he was guilty. The best you can do is meet a given threshold of evidence, defined by local law, and interpreted/judged subjectively by a jury/judge.
    You're missing the point. I'm not attempting to demonstrate a perfect system, I'm showing that in the example of the court of law the prosecution is presenting evidence that can be falsified. In other words you can hear their evidence, examine it, weigh it, possibly counter it or of course accept it. In a civilized system where there is no evidence the case is typically thrown out for lack of evidence. When this happens the statement being made isn't that the defendant is necessarily innocent, but that the prosecution has no case.

    That's what's going on here. Religious people have made a claim, presented no evidence, and therefore their case has until further notice been thrown out.

    In the meantime the faithful are perfectly free to present evidence as they wish to be examined and weighed. If they refuse to present that evidence then they will continue to not be taken seriously in any serious debate on the existence of god.

  2. #232
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    You're missing the point. I'm not attempting to demonstrate a perfect system, I'm showing that in the example of the court of law the prosecution is presenting evidence that can be falsified. In other words you can hear their evidence, examine it, weigh it, possibly counter it or of course accept it. In a civilized system where there is no evidence the case is typically thrown out for lack of evidence. When this happens the statement being made isn't that the defendant is necessarily innocent, but that the prosecution has no case.

    That's what's going on here. Religious people have made a claim, presented no evidence, and therefore their case has until further notice been thrown out.

    In the meantime the faithful are perfectly free to present evidence as they wish to be examined and weighed. If they refuse to present that evidence then they will continue to not be taken seriously in any serious debate on the existence of god.
    Two things. First, religion isn't under examination in any court of law, and it isn't up for any sort of civil decision. So I don't see the relevance here. Second, before you do a victory dance over the supposed superiority of atheism to theism in "any serious debate," understand that far, far more people are religious than not. So, whatever the reasons may be, religion seems to be winning the great civil debate.

  3. #233
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    On the contrary, people are socialised and indoctrinated into their parent's religion at an early age, well before they are capable of making an informed choice.
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  4. #234
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Two things. First, religion isn't under examination in any court of law, and it isn't up for any sort of civil decision. So I don't see the relevance here. Second, before you do a victory dance over the supposed superiority of atheism to theism in "any serious debate," understand that far, far more people are religious than not. So, whatever the reasons may be, religion seems to be winning the great civil debate.
    Wow. Argumentum ad populam? Seriously? Well, if that's how you want to play it be my guest. As the trend is for decreasing Christianity and rising self-identified nonreligious, that would mean at some point in time, if the trend continues, the claims of Christianity will be rendered false by virtue of it being in the minority.

    Your logic, not mine.

    In a debate the claims of religion are absolutely under examination. If the faithful can't handle challenges to their beliefs then they need to stick to other discussion topics or keep their claims squarely within their own circles. But in an actual debate religious claims have no special privileges, no get-out-of-jail-free cards, and no time off for good behavior. Down here in the pit you're just like the rest of us.

    As to your continually bringing up which is "superior," in a debate the side that points out the absence of evidence is unconditionally superior to the side that refuses to present it.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 08-15-13 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #235
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Wow. Argumentum ad populam? Seriously? Well, if that's how you want to play it be my guest. As the trend is for decreasing Christianity and rising self-identified nonreligious, that would mean at some point in time, if the trend continues, the claims of Christianity will be rendered false by virtue of it being in the minority.

    Your logic, not mine.

    In a debate the claims of religion are absolutely under examination. If the faithful can't handle challenges to their beliefs then they need to stick to other discussion topics or keep their claims squarely within their own circles. But in an actual debate religious claims have no special privileges, no get-out-of-jail-free cards, and no time off for good behavior.

    As to your continually bringing up which is "superior," in a debate the side that points out the absence of evidence is unconditionally superior to the side that refuses to present it.
    Hang on now. You're the one who made this an "ad populum" debate because you brought up the example of a court of law. Unless you still don't understand that a court operates under ad populum principles.

    I tried to actively avoid that, by shooting down your metaphor since, clearly, a court doesn't actually prove anything absolutely, it simply meets a threshold of evidence under law as subjectively interpreted by a judge or jury.

    But I figured hey, if you want to go down the ad populum route, I'll oblige, because I'll win that one too. Religion wins the civil argument because more people are religious than not.

    Trends are meaningless.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    On the contrary, people are socialised and indoctrinated into their parent's religion at an early age, well before they are capable of making an informed choice.
    Are you suggesting that people are incapable of choosing what to believe?

  7. #237
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Hang on now. You're the one who made this an "ad populum" debate because you brought up the example of a court of law. Unless you still don't understand that a court operates under ad populum principles.

    I tried to actively avoid that, by shooting down your metaphor since, clearly, a court doesn't actually prove anything absolutely, it simply meets a threshold of evidence under law as subjectively interpreted by a judge or jury.

    But I figured hey, if you want to go down the ad populum route, I'll oblige, because I'll win that one too. Religion wins the civil argument because more people are religious than not.

    Trends are meaningless.
    Oy vey. I brought up the court of law as an analogy because the prosecution is required to present evidence, or else the case is thrown out...for lack of evidence. And if it weren't required to present evidence then it would be easier to make bad accusations that would result in innocent people going to prison. It's a system that's set up to try to snuff out bad accusations (bad ideas/claims). How is it possible that point could go over your head?

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Oy vey. I brought up the court of law as an analogy because the prosecution is required to present evidence, or else the case is thrown out for...for lack of evidence. And if it weren't required to present evidence then it would be easier to make bad accusations that would result in innocent people going to prison. How is it possible that point could go over your head?
    Because that's fine for a court of law, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. We're not in a court of law, and nobody's guilt or innocence is being challenged.

    In your analogy, why am I the prosecution, or vv? This is just a really bad analogy, sorry.

  9. #239
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Because that's fine for a court of law, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. We're not in a court of law, and nobody's guilt or innocence is being challenged.
    The consequences are somewhat different but the systems and their requirements are much the same. When a prosecution fails to present evidence the defendant is released for lack of evidence (whether that's good or bad depends on the situation). When religious people refuse to present evidence in a debate they strengthen the perception that their claims are baseless, which is exactly the impact you've made throughout this thread. You think you've been placing the onus on atheism for proving their case or at least equating the positions of atheism and religion. But any observer can come in here and conclude that you have nothing, you know you have nothing, and are just scrambling to hide that fact (badly) as much as possible.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    The consequences are somewhat different but the systems and their requirements are much the same. When a prosecution fails to present evidence the defendant is released for lack of evidence (whether that's good or bad depends on the situation). When religious people refuse to present evidence in a debate they strengthen the perception that their claims are baseless, which is exactly the impact you've made throughout this thread. You think you've been placing the onus on atheism for proving their case or at least equating the positions of atheism and religion. But any observer can come in here and conclude that you have nothing, you know you have nothing, and are just scrambling to hide that fact (badly) as much as possible.
    Whose perception?

    At the end of the day, we know the truth to be one of two things: A.) God/s exist/s or B.) There is no god.

    Both cannot be true, neither cannot be true.

    We cannot prove either one. Thus, it becomes a matter of belief.

    It's pretty clear what you believe. I know what I believe. As for everyone else, they're free to believe what they want.

    I happen to believe God chooses his own flock. If you've heard the word of God and you believe in Him, it's because He wants you in his flock. If you've heard the Word but chosen not to believe, it's in God's hands.

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