View Poll Results: Is atheism a religion

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    23 16.31%
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    118 83.69%
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Thread: Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

  1. #221
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    No, they are not equal. The person making the claim that a thing exists/happens has to substantiate it.
    Why is that?

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Why is that?
    Why does the burden of evidence lie with the prosecution when someone is accused of a crime?

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I would call those elephants "gray."

    You just made my point for me. You can't imagine "not." Your mind needs a placeholder, in this case, gray.
    Yes, they are gray, which is "not pink". What you're essentially asking for is a colorless elephant, but that's not how you described it.

    So admit you are wrong and move on.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Seriously? You don't know any of the literary origins of the bible? The first four books came from a distinctly different time period than Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy retcons away some of the more physical aspects of god from the previous books, which depict god as frequently appearing as physical manifestations and eating food. The former depiction eschews most of the omnipotence, too. Meanwhile, the new testament depictions are generally based on Zeus. The elements of judgment based on morality in life and consignment to an afterlife are taken straight from Greek myth, not from the old testament. Not to mention the addition of the messiah being a physical descendant of a god, which is completely antithetical to the old testament stories about the messiah. Modern views of god, meanwhile, both in Christianity and Islam, assert that their god is the only one in existence, while the old testament explicitly mentions other gods, some even by name.

    Didn't you know all this already?

    So yeah, which god are you talking about? The one who appears as a ball of fire to lead people through the desert and eats food with the patriarchs, or the one who is completely unknowable? The one who insists that he's the only god in the universe, or the one who specifically conquers the Egyptian gods?
    This topic is more interesting than your point about probabilities, so let's stick to that. Your mind has an odd tendency to wander, so better we focus in on one topic at a time.

    What do you mean the "literary origins of the Bible?" If you're asking whether I'm aware when and by whom the given books were written, my answer is "yes," roughly, although there is some academic dispute on the matter so in some ways, we can't be totally sure.

    That really has nothing to do with there being one God. God never claims authorship of the Bible. The Bible is the word of God, written by man. Now let's address some of your points individually.

    "The first four books came from a distinctly different time period than Deuteronomy." - So? The bible was written by people over a long time span, not just Deuteronomy.

    "Deuteronomy retcons away some of the more physical aspects of god from the previous books, which depict god as frequently appearing as physical manifestations and eating food. The former depiction eschews most of the omnipotence, too." - So? Why can't God appear in physical form? Why can't a god who appears in physical form be omnipotent? That doesn't logically follow.

    "Meanwhile, the new testament depictions are generally based on Zeus." - In what way? Does Jesus live on mount Olympus and throw lightning bolts at people?


    "The elements of judgment based on morality in life and consignment to an afterlife are taken straight from Greek myth, not from the old testament." - I disagree, but feel free to prove it.

    "Not to mention the addition of the messiah being a physical descendant of a god, which is completely antithetical to the old testament stories about the messiah." - Again, prove it.

    "Modern views of god, meanwhile, both in Christianity and Islam, assert that their god is the only one in existence, while the old testament explicitly mentions other gods, some even by name." - It doesn't say that other gods exist, it recognizes that other people believe in other gods, and goes out of its way to show that those gods do not exist. Deuteronomy 6:4..... "hear o israel, the lord our god, the lord is one."


    So you've made a lot of claims there, and I don't agree with a single one of them. Go ahead and substantiate them. And make sure to show why all of that means there are several gods represented in the Bible, and ultimately, why you've proven that the Biblical God does not exist.... which was your original claim.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Why does the burden of evidence lie with the prosecution when someone is accused of a crime?
    In America that's true. Not everywhere.

    But to answer your question.... we have a burden of evidence standard because somebody has to win in a court of law. It's a tiebreaker. Nobody has to win here.

    By the way, just because someone loses a case in court doesn't mean they are guilty by virtue of logic, it means the prosecution met the burden of proof as defined by American law and as interpreted, subjectively, by a human judge or jury.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yes, they are gray, which is "not pink". What you're essentially asking for is a colorless elephant, but that's not how you described it.

    So admit you are wrong and move on.
    What I've shown is that the human mind can't deal in negatives. The only way you can conceive of a "not pink" elephant is to substitute pink for something else.... another positive.... like "gray" or "blue" or "polka dot."

    That was the point of my experiment.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    In America that's true. Not everywhere.

    But to answer your question.... we have a burden of evidence standard because somebody has to win in a court of law. It's a tiebreaker. Nobody has to win here.

    By the way, just because someone loses a case in court doesn't mean they are guilty by virtue of logic, it means the prosecution met the burden of proof as defined by American law and as interpreted, subjectively, by a human judge or jury.
    No. The burden of evidence lies with the prosecution because otherwise it would be fantastically easy to put innocent people in prison. We (rightly) consider countries that place the burden of evidence on the defendants to be largely backwards and uncivilized. The burden of evidence isn't placed on the prosecution "because somebody has to win," it's to minimize bad accusations that result in innocent people being punished for crimes they didn't commit.

    Likewise, the burden of evidence lies with those making the claim that a thing exists/happens so that bad ideas don't so easily get swallowed as fact. This is true in all cases where a claim that a thing is real is made: criminal charges, scientific hypotheses and, yes, even religious claims.

  8. #228
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    "Modern views of god, meanwhile, both in Christianity and Islam, assert that their god is the only one in existence, while the old testament explicitly mentions other gods, some even by name." - It doesn't say that other gods exist, it recognizes that other people believe in other gods, and goes out of its way to show that those gods do not exist. Deuteronomy 6:4..... "hear o israel, the lord our god, the lord is one."
    Yes, I know that Christians know almost nothing about Judaism, despite claiming that it predicted Jesus. And just saying "nuh uh" when confronted with the mainstream historical and literary understandings of the bible... yeah, compelling.

    So you've made a lot of claims there, and I don't agree with a single one of them. Go ahead and substantiate them. And make sure to show why all of that means there are several gods represented in the Bible, and ultimately, why you've proven that the Biblical God does not exist.... which was your original claim.
    I know you don't agree with them. Fortunately for the rest of us, that doesn't matter. Nor will you rise to my challenge and concisely define a god. "The god of the bible" is not a single concise character. I can show all manner of contradictions that make it nonsense, but I don't want this to devolve into just a lot of you saying that my arguments don't count because they don't square with your view of god. It already devolved into that over the bible.

    Pick a myth. Describe it clearly. I'll trash it.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    No. The burden of evidence lies with the prosecution because otherwise it would be fantastically easy to put innocent people in prison. We (rightly) consider countries that place the burden of evidence on the defendants to be largely backwards and uncivilized. The burden of evidence isn't placed on the prosecution "because somebody has to win," it's to minimize bad accusations that result in innocent people being punished for crimes they didn't commit.

    Likewise, the burden of evidence lies with those making the claim that a thing exists/happens so that bad ideas don't so easily get swallowed as fact. This is true in all cases where a claim that a thing is real is made: criminal charges, scientific hypotheses and, yes, even religious claims.

    Actually in many European countries, the standard is "guilty until proven innocent." Still, it's not "fantastically easy" to put innocent people in jail.

    However, the metaphor is a bad one. You can't compare a court of law, in which at the end of the day, the judge/jury have to make a "best call," to a debate dealing in absolute logic.

    You might believe OJ Simpson was not guilty, but you can never prove he was not guilty. Likewise, you can never prove that he was guilty. The best you can do is meet a given threshold of evidence, defined by local law, and interpreted/judged subjectively by a jury/judge.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Yes, I know that Christians know almost nothing about Judaism, despite claiming that it predicted Jesus. And just saying "nuh uh" when confronted with the mainstream historical and literary understandings of the bible... yeah, compelling.



    I know you don't agree with them. Fortunately for the rest of us, that doesn't matter. Nor will you rise to my challenge and concisely define a god. "The god of the bible" is not a single concise character. I can show all manner of contradictions that make it nonsense, but I don't want this to devolve into just a lot of you saying that my arguments don't count because they don't square with your view of god. It already devolved into that over the bible.

    Pick a myth. Describe it clearly. I'll trash it.
    Are you going to actually respond to my post, or what is this nonsense? You haven't addressed a single point I've made.

    You were to disprove the God of the Bible. Get crackin' at it, time is wasting away.

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