View Poll Results: Is atheism a religion

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Thread: Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

  1. #211
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The question was whether atheism is a religion, and the definition of religion is: "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods."

    What in the world is "supernatural" anyway? What a vague and useless word that is. Fun fact... did you know that many ancient people did in fact worship animals for their various superhuman qualities?
    Um, according to whom? I don't recall ever seeing or agreeing to that definition.

    "Supernatural" is something that is outside the laws of what can occur naturally.

    Yes, I am. So?



    And I'm telling you there's no such thing as a lack of belief. Imagine a NOT pink elephant.
    I can imagine one. Doesn't mean I believe in one. Also doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Pink dolphins exist. I thought that was a hoax at first, until I proved to my own satisfaction it wasn't.

    Just because you're incapable of understanding what a lack of believe is, doesn't mean it can't exist.

    I don't think you understand what belief is.... dude.

    I believe there are no purple ants on Mars. Just because I believe it doesn't mean I am certain. Belief does not equal certainty. I simply believe there are no purple ants on Mars due to my limited experience and knowledge of Mars.

    There isn't a single person on earth who limits his/her beliefs to that which they are certain of. Human beings are not capable of behaving that way.

    However, I'm not knocking your stance on God. You feel free to believe what you want, based on your experience of the world around you.
    Actually, you're the one who doesn't understand what "believe" means.

    I suggest you acquaint yourself with a dictionary, and then get back to me.

  2. #212
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Wait, so I never made a claim, did I? Caught red handed.
    I did exactly what you did at the bottom of your own post: if you make the claim, you have to substantiate it.


    If a claim were factually false, it probably could be dismissed. For instance, we know the earth revolves around the sun because we can observe it. If I tell you the Eiffel Tower is made of cheese, you can disprove that by going to the Eiffel Tower and observing it.
    Which is all very well and good because we can observe the sun and our rotation around it, and there's an Effel Tower to go visit to confirm it isn't made of cheese. So far God doesn't fit any of those qualifications.

    You're confused. I never claimed the existence of God is an indisputable fact. I claimed it was a belief, and one that cannot be disproved.
    A belief is not special by virtue of it being a "belief." It still must be substantiated or else not taken seriously.

    I know, you desperately want an uneven playing field so that your side can win. You're not getting it. If you make a claim (God does not exist) you need to prove it, just like you're asking me to do.

    Burden of proof is not a one-way street.
    I said that no evidence of God has been offered, and therefore his existence need not be taken seriously. But I have a feeling you're going to ignore this like you have every other time I've said it and default back to "you can't prove god's non-existence" anyway, aren't you?
    Last edited by Cardinal; 08-15-13 at 02:19 PM.

  3. #213
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Um, according to whom? I don't recall ever seeing or agreeing to that definition.
    Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]-relig-jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    "Supernatural" is something that is outside the laws of what can occur naturally.
    Right, but my question was more philosophical. What can occur "naturally?" For instance, if I were to show that adding mustard to yellow paint turned the paint in to pure gold, would that be supernatural, or would it simply be adopted as part of what occurs naturally?

    If I could replicate it over and over, it would simply be a law of nature. Mustard + yellow paint = Pure Gold.

    What I'm getting at is this: the laws defining nature are constantly changing, expanding, depending on what we discover. If we were to find proof of God, then, by your definition, He would no longer be God (if God is defined as something "supernatural"), but a natural phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes, I am. So?
    So an elephant would make a perfectly suitable god in some cultures.



    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post

    I can imagine one. Doesn't mean I believe in one. Also doesn't mean they don't exist.
    You can imagine a "not pink" elephant? What does "not pink" look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post

    Pink dolphins exist. I thought that was a hoax at first, until I proved to my own satisfaction it wasn't.
    Are they a gross pink or a cool pink? I could see that going either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post

    Just because you're incapable of understanding what a lack of believe is, doesn't mean it can't exist.
    A lack of belief is the same as belief in nothing. Nothingness, in itself, is a concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Actually, you're the one who doesn't understand what "believe" means.

    I suggest you acquaint yourself with a dictionary, and then get back to me.
    What makes you say that? Surely there is a difference between belief and certainty?

  4. #214
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Which is all very well and good because we can observe the sun and our rotation around it, and there's an Effel Tower to go visit to confirm it isn't made of cheese. So far God doesn't fit any of those qualifications.
    Right, so we've established that some things can be proved, while other things cannot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post

    A belief is not special by virtue of it being a "belief." It still must be substantiated or else not taken seriously.
    Actually, belief is distinct from certainty in that certainty is mandated by a body of evidence, whereas belief is a choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I said that no evidence of God has been offered, and therefore his existence need not be taken seriously. But I have a feeling you're going to ignore this like you have every other time I've said it and default back to "you can't prove god's non-existence" anyway, aren't you?
    Well, I mean that's what we're saying, isn't it?

    Again, one of the following is correct....

    A.) God/gods exist
    B.) No god/gods exist

    I have never claimed to be able to prove A. You have never claimed to be able to prove B (although Paschendale did claim to be able to, so I'm still waiting on that).

    So, absent proof either way, what you're left with is belief in one or the other.

    Now, you can list a whole slew of reasons why you think your belief is better than mine, or vice versa. However, the sum of it does not amount to proof, it's just an opinion at the end of the day.

  5. #215
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post

    You can imagine a "not pink" elephant? What does "not pink" look like?
    You really don't know what a not pink elephant looks like? It looks like every other elephant on the planet.

    Oh look, here's a few of them now:

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Well, I mean that's what we're saying, isn't it?
    That's what you say we're saying, and then quick as a rabbit you bounce right back to "you can't prove God's nonexistence" and every variation thereof as if that's what I've claimed I had any intention of doing. But I have no intention at all of disproving god. I will only say what I've always been saying: no evidence for god has been offered, so consideration of his existence need not be taken seriously. No matter how many times you default to "you can't prove god's nonexistence" (and I'm sure you will...again), that fact will never change.

    Unless of course you feel like offering evidence of God's existence. Feel up to it?

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    I would call those elephants "gray."

    You just made my point for me. You can't imagine "not." Your mind needs a placeholder, in this case, gray.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    You really don't know what a not pink elephant looks like? It looks like every other elephant on the planet.

    Oh look, here's a few of them now:


  8. #218
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That's what you say we're saying, and then quick as a rabbit you bounce right back to "you can't prove God's nonexistence" and every variation thereof as if that's what I've claimed I had any intention of doing. But I have no intention at all of disproving god. I will only say what I've always been saying: no evidence for god has been offered, so consideration of his existence need not be taken seriously. No matter how many times you default to "you can't prove god's nonexistence" (and I'm sure you will...again), that fact will never change.

    Unless of course you feel like offering evidence of God's existence. Feel up to it?
    You're taking a page out of Paschendale's book and attributing to me arguments I'm not trying to make. Did you learn that at the "Richard Dawkins School of Debate and Stuff"?

    I never said I was interested in proving that God exists. I'm not. Belief in God is a matter of faith.

    You say "no evidence for god has been offered, so consideration of his existence need not be taken seriously."

    Is it not the same, then, to say "no evidence for the lack of god has been offered, so consideration for the lack of his existence need not be taken seriously?"

    Perhaps when presented with a mirror, you'll see the glaring flaw in your logic.

  9. #219
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You're taking a page out of Paschendale's book and attributing to me arguments I'm not trying to make. Did you learn that at the "Richard Dawkins School of Debate and Stuff"?

    I never said I was interested in proving that God exists. I'm not. Belief in God is a matter of faith.

    You say "no evidence for god has been offered, so consideration of his existence need not be taken seriously."

    Is it not the same, then, to say "no evidence for the lack of god has been offered, so consideration for the lack of his existence need not be taken seriously?"

    Perhaps when presented with a mirror, you'll see the glaring flaw in your logic.
    No, they are not equal. The person making the claim that a thing exists/happens has to substantiate it.

  10. #220
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    No, there's just one God in the bible. Cute story though, the one you made up about there being half a dozen gods or whatever. Why don't you start by proving THAT?

    It's time to nail you down to something, you keep squirming around the issues and intentionally misrepresenting my positions. Prove that there are "half a dozen distinct god myths that contradict each other" in the bible.

    I'll wait.
    Seriously? You don't know any of the literary origins of the bible? The first four books came from a distinctly different time period than Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy retcons away some of the more physical aspects of god from the previous books, which depict god as frequently appearing as physical manifestations and eating food. The former depiction eschews most of the omnipotence, too. Meanwhile, the new testament depictions are generally based on Zeus. The elements of judgment based on morality in life and consignment to an afterlife are taken straight from Greek myth, not from the old testament. Not to mention the addition of the messiah being a physical descendant of a god, which is completely antithetical to the old testament stories about the messiah. Modern views of god, meanwhile, both in Christianity and Islam, assert that their god is the only one in existence, while the old testament explicitly mentions other gods, some even by name.

    Didn't you know all this already?

    So yeah, which god are you talking about? The one who appears as a ball of fire to lead people through the desert and eats food with the patriarchs, or the one who is completely unknowable? The one who insists that he's the only god in the universe, or the one who specifically conquers the Egyptian gods?

    No, I have not misrepresented you. You said there's no reason not to think there's a god. You drew a false equivalence between the likelihood of the existence or nonexistence of a specific deity, which you still have not defined. You also said that we cannot determine probability. We can.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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