View Poll Results: Is atheism a religion

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Thread: Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

  1. #201
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    I' know one who does and he was who I was thinking of when I wrote that post. I imagine there are others out there. I wasn't saying it was some widespread problem but it definitely exists.
    To whom are you referring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You're making my argument out to be something it isn't. I never mentioned a specific god, I simply pointed out the truism that either A.) God/gods exist, or B.) He/it/they don't. One or the other statement is true, while the remaining one is false. They can't both be true, and it can't be the case that neither is true.
    Well yeah. Of course something either exists or it doesn't. But saying that doesn't mean they're equally likely. It is not a 50/50 chance. Dragons either exist or they don't. But we all know they don't. The probability of dragons existing is far less than the probability of them simply being made up. The same is true of any other supernatural creature.

    That said, there is no more evidence to support the notion that no god exists than there is to support the notion that a god does exist.
    Nonsense. Of course there is. Assuming that one uses any commonly understood definition for a god. There is no magic in the world. There are no miracles. The world operates exactly as it should without gods in it. Every single postulated attribute ever given to a god has been false. No two people agree on what god or gods there are. All of this is very consistent with mistaken human experience. Not divine truth.

    Just so we're straight.... are you claiming that you can prove that God doesn't exist?
    Easily. I'll make the same offer to you I make all the time on this forum. Define a god, and I'll be happy to prove that it doesn't exist. Of course, most likely you'll offer a vague definition that doesn't include any of the things commonly attributed to god, so I usually end up proving that such a god is irrelevant to our existence. That's what everyone does. No one has ever offered me a god that would lead to judgment, prophets, or moral codes. So either deep down you're all deists who don't actually believe a word of your own religions, or you know it's nonsense and you just don't want to admit it.

    So please, define me a god. Make it one that matters. I'll show how it's nonsense.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Why resort to something as silly and useless as a belief when you can attempt to gain actual knowledge and reach reasoned conclusions? A belief is just something you want to be true, not something that is true, or is even likely true.
    A belief is something that is likely to be true based on past experience. You believe all sorts of things that you never acquired with "actual knowledge" - Do you believe that Mt. Everest exists? Do you believe that it's the highest mountain on Earth? That's not "actual knowledge" - assuming you've never been there yourself, and never independently determined its height - you simply believe something that you've heard from someone else.

  3. #203
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The whole burden of proof debate is tiresome. Haven't you atheists "evolved" beyond that yet? It's the same thing Richard Dawkins was spitting out 30 years ago.

    Look, debate forum or no, nobody is required to substantiate their faith
    Of course you're not...in any other circumstance, but you are absolutely required to substantiate it if you make a claim in a debate. Your faith is not in any way a get-out-of-jail-free card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I didn't want to get dragged in to this old debate on burden of proof, but look. Let's view this logically. Let's begin with two statements....

    A.) There is no God
    B.) God/gods exists.

    We know that one of the above is true, that is fact. But which is it, A or B? Which is truth? In fact, we can't find enough evidence to prove either claim. Thus, belief in either is a matter of faith.

    This is a fact and you cannot dispute it.

    Now I realize you would like to unload the entire burden of proof on the religious (making us have to prove claim B while you do not have to prove claim A), however, that just ain't gonna happen.
    We don't have to "prove" A), we only need to conclude that evidence for god's existence hasn't been offered, so we need not take his existence seriously any more than you should seriously consider the possibility that I'm Batman.

  4. #204
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    The only thing I do know is that the man-made religions here on earth are just that: man-made.
    Actually, you don't KNOW that, you BELIEVE it.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Well yeah. Of course something either exists or it doesn't. But saying that doesn't mean they're equally likely. It is not a 50/50 chance. Dragons either exist or they don't. But we all know they don't. The probability of dragons existing is far less than the probability of them simply being made up. The same is true of any other supernatural creature.
    Again, you need to stop projecting arguments on to me that I'm not making. I never said anything about probabilities, I simply said the truth is either that god exists or not. In fact, we can't assign a probability to either option being correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Nonsense. Of course there is. Assuming that one uses any commonly understood definition for a god. There is no magic in the world. There are no miracles. The world operates exactly as it should without gods in it. Every single postulated attribute ever given to a god has been false. No two people agree on what god or gods there are. All of this is very consistent with mistaken human experience. Not divine truth.



    Easily. I'll make the same offer to you I make all the time on this forum. Define a god, and I'll be happy to prove that it doesn't exist. Of course, most likely you'll offer a vague definition that doesn't include any of the things commonly attributed to god, so I usually end up proving that such a god is irrelevant to our existence. That's what everyone does. No one has ever offered me a god that would lead to judgment, prophets, or moral codes. So either deep down you're all deists who don't actually believe a word of your own religions, or you know it's nonsense and you just don't want to admit it.

    So please, define me a god. Make it one that matters. I'll show how it's nonsense.
    That's quite something, considering nobody in the history of man has ever been able to disprove the existence of God. But you're saying that you can. Forgive me for doubting you.

    However, although I doubt you, don't get that confused. That doesn't mean I believe you can't disprove God. You see, the lack of belief in something is not at all the same as believing you can't do something... duh.

    ...

    Hey, you want to take swing at it? I'd be amused to see what you come up with. Try to disprove the biblical God. And.....go.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Of course you're not...in any other circumstance, but you are absolutely required to substantiate it if you make a claim in a debate. Your faith is not in any way a get-out-of-jail-free card.
    What claim did I make, Cardinal?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    We don't have to "prove" A), we only need to conclude that evidence for god's existence hasn't been offered, so we need not take his existence seriously any more than you should seriously consider the possibility that I'm Batman.
    So I need to prove that God exists, but you don't need to prove that no god exists. Yeah.....no. Sorry, but I'm only interested in level playing fields.

    The fact remains that the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved, so atheism and theism are equally matters of belief. You may think your belief is superior to mine, but you cannot prove it.

    As for Batman, if you choose to believe you are Batman, that's your business.

  7. #207
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Again, you need to stop projecting arguments on to me that I'm not making. I never said anything about probabilities, I simply said the truth is either that god exists or not. In fact, we can't assign a probability to either option being correct.
    Yes, we most certainly can. That's the argument you're making. That it's a completely arbitrary decision and there's no compelling reason not to believe. We both know there's no reason to believe. Your whole argument is a false equivalency.

    Hey, you want to take swing at it? I'd be amused to see what you come up with. Try to disprove the biblical God. And.....go.
    You'll have to be a lot more specific than that. There is no singular biblical god. There are half a dozen distinct god myths that contradict each other in just modern translations of the bible, and millions of different assertions on what does or doesn't count from the text, and what else is implied by it.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  8. #208
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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    What claim did I make, Cardinal?
    The "royal" you. If you" make the claim that there is a god you are required to substantiate it.

    So I need to prove that God exists, but you don't need to prove that no god exists.
    Yup! Because if everyone were required to prove a negative then anybody could get away with making any claim whatsoever. No claim, however factually and demonstrably false, could be dismissed.

    Yeah.....no. Sorry, but I'm only interested in level playing fields.
    The "level playing field" you seek would allow any false claim and superstition to persist as fact.

    The fact remains that the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved, so atheism and theism are equally matters of belief. You may think your belief is superior to mine, but you cannot prove it.
    As I said, we don't need to prove god doesn't exist. We can just observe truthfully that no evidence has been offered.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Yes, we most certainly can. That's the argument you're making. That it's a completely arbitrary decision and there's no compelling reason not to believe. We both know there's no reason to believe. Your whole argument is a false equivalency.
    If you think that's the argument I'm making, no wonder we're not getting anywhere. Try going through and reading what I actually wrote before you respond to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    You'll have to be a lot more specific than that. There is no singular biblical god. There are half a dozen distinct god myths that contradict each other in just modern translations of the bible, and millions of different assertions on what does or doesn't count from the text, and what else is implied by it.
    No, there's just one God in the bible. Cute story though, the one you made up about there being half a dozen gods or whatever. Why don't you start by proving THAT?

    It's time to nail you down to something, you keep squirming around the issues and intentionally misrepresenting my positions. Prove that there are "half a dozen distinct god myths that contradict each other" in the bible.

    I'll wait.

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    Re: Is atheism a religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    The "royal" you. If you" make the claim that there is a god you are required to substantiate it.
    Wait, so I never made a claim, did I? Caught red handed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Yup! Because if everyone were required to prove a negative then anybody could get away with making any claim whatsoever. No claim, however factually and demonstrably false, could be dismissed.
    If a claim were factually false, it probably could be dismissed. For instance, we know the earth revolves around the sun because we can observe it. If I tell you the Eiffel Tower is made of cheese, you can disprove that by going to the Eiffel Tower and observing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post

    The "level playing field" you seek would allow any false claim and superstition to persist as fact.
    You're confused. I never claimed the existence of God is an indisputable fact. I claimed it was a belief, and one that cannot be disproved. Likewise, I claimed that belief in no god is still a belief, and one that cannot be disproved nor proved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post

    As I said, we don't need to prove god doesn't exist. We can just observe truthfully that no evidence has been offered.
    I know, you desperately want an uneven playing field so that your side can win. You're not getting it. If you make a claim (God does not exist) you need to prove it, just like you're asking me to do.

    Burden of proof is not a one-way street.

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