View Poll Results: Do you favor bailing out Detroit?

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  • Yes.

    16 18.18%
  • No.

    67 76.14%
  • Don't know.

    5 5.68%
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Thread: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

  1. #81
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Do you acknowledge that the residents of Detroit elected their city government?
    Some did . Some did not. Some did not live there when various administrations were elected. Some who did are gone. Some were not even born then.



    Do you acknowledge that the city government in Detroit had authority and responsibility for establishing yearly budgets and generating the revenues to support those budgets and expenditures?

    To a point. How does one generate needed revenues when 2/3 of the population has left and taken the jobs and tax base with it but the city is still the same size?

    Do you acknowledge that the city government in Detroit entered into collective agreements with their city employees over the past 50 years, signing off on all improvements in wages and benefits contained in those agreements?
    Yes they did. And we have seen no evidence offered by you nor anyone else that those agreements had anything wrong with them. So by itself, your question and my answer says nothing incriminating.

    Do you acknowledge that if the city government runs a deficit in a particular year, it is their sworn oath responsibility to account for that deficit in the next year and to ensure it isn't replicated in the next year?
    The city borrows money - just like the State and the Federal government does.

    Do you have any evidence at all of any extraordinary circumstances such as natural disasters or infrastructure catastrophes that hit the city so hard that they could not handle them in the budget year?
    Yes. A loss of 2/3 of your population is probably worse than a one time natural disaster.
    Yes. A loss of your good paying manufacturing jobs is probably worse than a one time natural disaster.
    Yes, the failure of the State of Michigan to make good on its commitment for annual revenue sharing revenues in return for Detroit lowering its taxes is the equal of a natural disaster.

    Bottom line, the current city government of Detroit may not be specifically responsible for all of Detroit's problems but all of the city governments of Detroit over the past 50 years are collectively responsible and all those governments were freely elected and reelected by the residents of Detroit.
    First, the slide began some 60 years ago - not 50.
    Second, the people you want to hold responsible are not there to take responsibility as most are dead and gone.

    So, yes, the people of Detroit are responsible for their mess
    As you can see by the answers to your own questions, that is not so clear cut as you would have us believe.
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Actually the recent case of the fertilizer plant explosion in West, TX is a good example. FEMA help was denied, rightly, as it was a man caused disaster. If all big blue cities are now free to promise things far in excess of what their local tax base can support, declare a "woops" and then get tossed a pile of federal cash to "make things right" that amounts to taxation without representation. Those outside of Detriot had no say in the terrible decisions made leading up to the collapse, so why should they have any responsibility for the results?
    YOu act as if the remaining population in Detroit voted for this? Half of Detroit was not even alive in the first thirty years of the slide when half the population had left and took the manufacturing jobs and tax base with it. The people who were responsible for that are pretty much dead and gone.

    YOu say that those outside Detroit had no say in Detroit which is not entirely true. Detroit lost over 1.1 million people. Where do you think they went to? Most went to surrounding suburbs. So many suburbanites who did have a say in Detroit are not gone elsewhere.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #83
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You falsely assume that the people living in those places do so with no knowledge of the risks and problems. Which is simply not the case..... at least for very long.



    When the right rants and raves, whines and cries about unions and high wages, I rarely if ever see the evidence of this allegation. Do you have that to provide for Detroit?
    Not assuming anything. I live in a place that occasionally gets tornadoes and hurricanes. My premiums went up after our last big bout with the suckers... I am not asking you to pay my insurance premium. I got T-boned by a guy driving a rental whose insurance didnt cover him... I had to cover most my loss myself... I didn't expect haymarket to bail me out. You are welcome to if you want however.

    You only have to look at the marketplace, supply and demand to see the evidence of too high wages, etc... how are wages and jobs in Detroit nowadays [ just rhetorical, we know how they are ] ? Come on, don't act like you don't know. Who or what then, to you, is/are responsible for the disaster of Detroit? Was it just a whim that led jobs away... just happenstance, the bad luck of the draw...or was it something else?
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

  4. #84
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Not assuming anything. I live in a place that occasionally gets tornadoes and hurricanes. My premiums went up after our last big bout with the suckers... I am not asking you to pay my insurance premium. I got T-boned by a guy driving a rental whose insurance didnt cover him... I had to cover most my loss myself... I didn't expect haymarket to bail me out. You are welcome to if you want however.

    You only have to look at the marketplace, supply and demand to see the evidence of too high wages, etc... how are wages and jobs in Detroit nowadays [ just rhetorical, we know how they are ] ? Come on, don't act like you don't know. Who or what then, to you, is/are responsible for the disaster of Detroit? Was it just a whim that led jobs away... just happenstance, the bad luck of the draw...or was it something else?
    But we all do help each other. Do you know what donor states are? they are states which contribute far more in federal taxes than they ever get back. Recipient states are those like New Mexico where they get back twice what they contribute. We all help each other in the USA.

    http://taxfoundation.org/blog/why-do...ing-not-others

    btw - Michigan gets back only 85 cents on the dollar for what we pay in.

    What is your point in asking me about wages in Detroit?
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  5. #85
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Come on liberals. Ya'll need to get behind this in a big way
    .



    I was born in Detroit about 70 years ago.I'm very glad that I got out of there.

    I saw that Detroit was going downhill and I got out of there in 1967, probably the best move that I have made in my life.

    I totally support not bailing out Detroit. The city of Detroit and the state of Michigan need to clean up that mess. They made the mess, let them clean it up. It will be a valuable learning process for everyone involved.

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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Perhaps not, but it's part of life; unfortunately that's how finance works.

    The pensioners will receive thru the PGBC a portion of their income up to about $60k a year for those 65+ and reduced amounts for younger ones. That is already law since 1974 (ERISA) and updated in 2006 (PPA). It could be worst: they could get zero. So we've taken care of the pensioners already.
    We don't need to bailout Detroit to help them.

    What does GS have to do with anything?
    I wasn't talking about a complete bailout, only protection for people who fulfilled their end of the agreement and should get what's owed.

    GS has to do with this for the fact that the Government bailed them out which if they didn't their losses wouldn't have bankrupted them. They're the ones the "That's life in finance" conversation should be had with, not pensioners. They're also a private entity which received tax payer funds. Makes little sense to give tax payer i.e. public funds to a private entity and not to a public one.

    Again, I am all for the city to lay in its own filth, but mismanagement on the part of the politicians shouldn't mean that rank and file employees of the city should have to suffer. You know the upper echelon won't, they'll find their golden parachute. I'm saying don't let them, and instead give it to who fulfilled their obligations. It would be nice if a GOPer was the point man on this, it would go a long way...

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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Detroit mismanagement was the fault of those living there, including those with unfunded pensions. Even if not, it was certainly not my fault. Let them figure it out on their own, or not.

    I feel the same way about Goldman Sachs, AIG, GM and Chrysler. and the banks.
    right, but we already gave them our money... I'd challenge the fact that it was the pensioners fault. I live in IL, voted against every dink in office, there mismanagement is my fault? The fault of the entire State outside Crook County? No.

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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0bserver92 View Post
    We don't want it.
    I don't blame you...

  9. #89
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But we all do help each other. Do you know what donor states are? they are states which contribute far more in federal taxes than they ever get back. Recipient states are those like New Mexico where they get back twice what they contribute. We all help each other in the USA.

    Why Do Some States Feast on Federal Spending, Not Others? | Tax Foundation


    btw - Michigan gets back only 85 cents on the dollar for what we pay in.

    What is your point in asking me about wages in Detroit?
    Listen, I hear ya. We are all Americans here. I am just of the mind that we have for too long allowed people to abuse and mismanage their situations. We no longer have the convenience to just ingore all these problems, to just throw money that we don't have at problems that some have gotten themselves into due to mismanagement. Gotta do something for yourself. When you do that you learn and feel better about what you have done. If we just bail you out, what have you learned?

    My point is that Detroit priced themselves out of the global wage market, people who had skills obviously realized that, moved to where there are jobs, maybe lower paying jobs but at the same time maybe with better, less violent schools, less crime in general, less racial polarization, etc... now Detroit has low skilled workers and no work. Maybe should have thought about all that before driving most the good work away?

    Makes ya wonder.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    No, I don't favor bailing out Detroit. If the government of Detroit is insolvent, then it should declare bankruptcy.

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