View Poll Results: Do you favor bailing out Detroit?

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  • Yes.

    16 18.18%
  • No.

    67 76.14%
  • Don't know.

    5 5.68%
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Thread: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

  1. #101
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    and what if Detroit financial troubles causes it to fail and drags the entire country down with it?
    We are playing the "what if" game now? So what if a meteor strikes the world and we all die off in a massive extinction event? Anything is possible, but is it immediately likely? No.

    Detroit is no longer an industrial hub, and if it actually falls completely into the crapper (which it won't) there isn't much more harm it can do to our economy than has already occurred with the "Great Recession of 2008."

    Let me repeat myself. Detroit has enough of a tax base to pull itself out of the toilet without a bail out. It will require severe austerity measures, and the cooperation of it's citizens to make it work. If they don't cooperate to work it out? That's on them!
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #102
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Detroit is facing a huge problem, to be sure. And it cannot be solved quickly or painlessly. But, what has Detroit done thus far to keep the situation from getting worse?

    For example, even with reductions in staff through layoffs and/or attrition, there will come a point that new hires will have to be made. When those new people are hired, will they be steered into a more reasonable and rational 401k-type retirement plan, or will they continue to be funneled into the existing and broken pension plan?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  3. #103
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Um, if you are arguing for bankruptcy...you are.

    If you are arguing that the city should have foreseen for the massive decline in jobs/property values/increased unemployment that happened in the last 4 years ( a very real disaster) while still needing to maintain city services, then you ought to lend them your crystal ball.
    I'm not advocating for anything other than what I suggested in my first post. As for arguing for bankruptcy, that ship has sailed. As for foreseeing Detroit's decline, if you believe Detroit has only been in decline for the past 4 years, that's just blind nonsense. This has been a long, long time coming.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  4. #104
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by lolabird View Post
    It was a metaphor.
    You need to calm down and realize that not all people think as you do.
    And stop trying to goad me. It's very off-putting.
    LOL I am perfectly calm and I responded to a facetious comment (i.e. "pipe") with a facetious answer.

    Besides, I'm not the one using appeals to emotion to support my case. My responses have been the same throughout. If you find honesty off-putting...don't debate.

    In any case you are again avoiding the topic and trying to make this a personal issue. I do not intend to let that happen, so please stay on point because any further attempts to avoid the OP's issue will be ignored. Thanks.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  5. #105
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    LOL I am perfectly calm and I responded to a facetious comment (i.e. "pipe") with a facetious answer.

    Besides, I'm not the one using appeals to emotion to support my case. My responses have been the same throughout. If you find honesty off-putting...don't debate.

    In any case you are again avoiding the topic and trying to make this a personal issue. I do not intend to let that happen, so please stay on point because any further attempts to avoid the OP's issue will be ignored. Thanks.
    Please stop with your accusations. Thank you.

  6. #106
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    The politicians who get elected are the ones who promise the world, even if the world is not deliverable. As long as the people keep insisting on getting the world, things will not change. And I don't mean just in Detroit, I mean all over the country. Detroit is just one of the first, and so far biggest, domino to fall.
    I agree. Citizens have neglected their civic duties and allowed corruption to gain control of the reins of government. Thereby creating a runaway situation; we need to recapture the reins and slow this buggy down. Detroit would be a good place to start.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  7. #107
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Some did . Some did not. Some did not live there when various administrations were elected. Some who did are gone. Some were not even born then.



    Do you acknowledge that the city government in Detroit had authority and responsibility for establishing yearly budgets and generating the revenues to support those budgets and expenditures?

    To a point. How does one generate needed revenues when 2/3 of the population has left and taken the jobs and tax base with it but the city is still the same size?



    Yes they did. And we have seen no evidence offered by you nor anyone else that those agreements had anything wrong with them. So by itself, your question and my answer says nothing incriminating.



    The city borrows money - just like the State and the Federal government does.



    Yes. A loss of 2/3 of your population is probably worse than a one time natural disaster.
    Yes. A loss of your good paying manufacturing jobs is probably worse than a one time natural disaster.
    Yes, the failure of the State of Michigan to make good on its commitment for annual revenue sharing revenues in return for Detroit lowering its taxes is the equal of a natural disaster.



    First, the slide began some 60 years ago - not 50.
    Second, the people you want to hold responsible are not there to take responsibility as most are dead and gone.



    As you can see by the answers to your own questions, that is not so clear cut as you would have us believe.
    I won't argue the points you've made - you identify the problems, but you don't identify the causes of those problems. I would argue that a well run city with a strong municipal government, responsible and dedicated to the people and the health of their city and not solely to themselves, does not have the exodus of residents and business for no reason - that's just not logical. People and businesses left for two main reasons - because taxes were too high and growing higher and crime was running rampant without any attempts to seriously curtail it.

    These people didn't all flee the city for other big cities or other states - in many cases, they moved out of the municipal jurisdiction of the city of Detroit proper to surrounding metropolitan areas with less crime and lower taxes. Many of these, interestingly, are city employees like police officers, firefighters, etc. So they make their living from the city and pay their taxes somewhere else.

    That's a recipe for disaster if you don't stop it and the city government seems to have just let the city rot.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  8. #108
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No, I don't favor bailing out Detroit.
    If the government of Detroit is insolvent, then it should declare bankruptcy
    .






    That's exactly what it did.

  9. #109
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I think those who's pensions are in jeopardy should somehow be taken care of. I don't think Detroit as a city is worth saving. I can't think of any industry where it makes sense to make Detroit its global headquarters where it wouldn't make more sense to have it somewhere else. The auto industry would be more efficiently run out of a city with an international seaport in my opinion.

    It would have been best to do this in advance, but create a national pool of all city workers pensions then if one city has issues, the retirees are safe. It might be good to go ahead and extend the national pooling to other benefits too like health insurance group, etc.
    That creates a huge problem. Are pensions and benefits still going to be negotiated and set by the city? So pretty much every city will be in an arms race to raise their pension as much as possible while also underfunding those same pensions as much as possible. Pretty much the only way its going to be resolved at that point is the federal government taking over the pensions for city workers.

  10. #110
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    Re: Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'm not advocating for anything other than what I suggested in my first post. As for arguing for bankruptcy, that ship has sailed. As for foreseeing Detroit's decline, if you believe Detroit has only been in decline for the past 4 years, that's just blind nonsense. This has been a long, long time coming.
    Well, again our resident soothseer, where was your crystal ball 4 years ago and why didn't you let everone know that the spike in unemployment was coming along with the dramatic declines in residents and property values?





    forecasters are always 100%.....years after an event.

    PS...I have been posting about the big drop off in manufacturing since 2000 in multiple threads of late

    PPS...the city's eligibility for bankruptcy is not a forgone conclusion.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 08-03-13 at 07:41 PM.
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