Do you support school uniforms?

I don't favor uniforms, but I would favor a dress code.

vesper said:

The use of Uniforms isn't targeting the problem, its nothing more than a one size fits all mentality.
Don't try to make this all about fashion because that is a fallacy. Parents that have to pay for uniforms for school use then another set of clothing to wear when their children regain their freedoms to express themselves after school is a financial burden for many. The good news is people have the right to overturn such decisions within their school districts. So there is always hope.

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Are you serious? You have two set of "uniforms" for school...and you still need to buy the kids anything they want to wear for later? If you are a parent who can afford to spoil their children's fashion sense, more power to you. Splurge on them for afterschool mall-wear all you want. Let them express themselves then. School? Not so much.

Their one and only job in school is to learn; not try to impress their peers with the latest fad to wear.

Henrin said:

A protecting class? Children still deserve freedom and respect. Just because you can control children without limit does not mean you should.

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ProtectED class, not "protecting" class. We adults do the protecting, they (the children) are protected. Again, they have multiple avenues of expression while in school without resort to "fashion issues." It this very attitude of coddling that is making our society a "major fail" today. Kids are so concerned with everything EXCEPT a good education, they graduate with overconfidence and little or no knowledge to support their goals. Too much "freedom of expression" and not enough "nose to the grindstone" is why our kids test so "dumb" these days compared to most other industrialized nations.

Henrin said:

The one so called half-ass negative is pretty damn important. Totally control is no solution at all.

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That's your best shot? An emotional appeal with no foundation in reality? :coffeepap

Captain Adverse said:

ProtectED class, not "protecting" class. We adults do the protecting, they (the children) are protected. Again, they have multiple avenues of expression while in school without resort to "fashion issues." It this very attitude of coddling that is making our society a "major fail" today. Kids are so concerned with everything EXCEPT a good education, they graduate with overconfidence and little or no knowledge to support their goals. Too much "freedom of expression" and not enough "nose to the grindstone" is why our kids test so "dumb" these days compared to most other industrialized nations.

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Overbearing parents and schools are just as bad as any one else that is overbearing on those that they govern. I don't happen to find oppression is a desirable way to obtain your goals. You can whip a kid everyday until they stop acting up or you can actually be a parent and stop abusing your authority. You can have laws on everything under the sun that might do harm and I'm sure you will have some sort of positive return for your efforts. Absolute rule is without question a very effective way to reach your goals no matter what they are and abuse of those you govern will no doubt come about if you practice it. There is no reason to doubt that many times loss of freedom could be argued is a positive thing and in many of those cases the argument will lean heavily towards the argument that it improved the behavior of those governed. Don't be surprised that I don't consider it a good one.

vesper said:

Those "distractions" should be individually addressed

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Yes, because we certainly don't have enough to do yet. It's not like we're doing anything throughout the day. :roll:

And or enforcement of a reasonable dress code.

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That's what we're doing. We're putting in place reasonable measures to promote a better atmosphere for learning.

It isn't the clothes that are causing the bad behavior and poor performance of students. It goes much deeper than that. But hey maybe that is why some folks don't want to dwell there and instead opt for a Band-Aid solution like uniforms.

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Ahh, so now teachers and administrators should also be psychologists. Got it. :roll:

I think freedom-minded people

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Understand there is a legitimate reason for a stricter dress code. It's only the people blinded to ridiculous ideological positions despite having very limited experience in the area being discussed who think they know better.

tend to be against uniforms because it diminishes freedom of expression.

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Being "freedom-minded" means not being a slave to your preconceptions. You have been responded to in this thread by many teachers who have explained to you the benefits and yet you still argue the same ridiculous talking points you were using at the beginning. That's not being "freedom-minded", that's being a slave to preconceptions.

Henrin said:

Nope. I just think that if bullying is the issue you address bullying.

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That's what we're doing. We're taking a proactive, rather than a reactive, approach to it.

You don't address the entire student body that to the most part is getting along when the problem is a few individuals that are being uncivil to their fellow students.

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A dress code addresses a large range of issues, not just bullying. Less bullying is just one of the benefits.

Actually, it was. His intent on bringing it up was to appeal to my emotions.

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No, it wasn't. It was a question posed to you in hopes you might fully understand the ramifications of bullying. We now see it's not so much you don't understand as it is you don't really care.

There is no such thing taking place. I just reject the argument that bullying is a legitimate reason to restrict the freedom of innocent parties.

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As I've mentioned, it's not the only benefit to a stricter dress code.

vesper said:

Don't try to make this all about fashion

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Uhh, that's what YOU are doing. You are making this about fashion. We've already shown the different ways a student can express him or herself. You reject all of those (or at the very least ignore them) and simply settle on fashion statements.

Parents that have to pay for uniforms for school use then another set of clothing to wear when their children regain their freedoms to express themselves after school is a financial burden for many.

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I'm sorry, did you really just say parents HAVE to buy a certain set of clothing for their children to express themselves?

That's the biggest load of BS I think I've read in this thread.

Let's see the average school uniform is rather unisex except for the boy's trousers replaced with Stalin looking jumpers for girls and ladies golf skirts. Both have an unisex assortment of bland color polo golf shirts and a sparse selection of button down shirts, usually white and blue. So if a parent has to spend their limited clothing allowance on these types of clothing for their child to attend school what is a young lady to wear on a date, a dance, a picnic if her parents need not purchase two sets of clothing? Should she opt for the Stalin jumper and maybe accessorize with a red star pin or the old lady golf skirt? According to you advocates for school uniforms, there is no other clothing requirements for the parents and that is obviously not true. But if the student was permitted to wear what their parents end up having to buy them to wear outside of school, of course it would be less expensive.
Without the additional cost of uniforms, for a family with 2-3 kids, just getting all the haircuts, eye exams/glasses updated, shoes and additional items needed for sporting activities, physicals, dental appointments and the ever growing list of supplies each pupil is to provide along with all the tissues, hand sanitizers, toilet paper. Cripe a kid can't make it to class the first day carrying all the crap they are told to supply. Enough!

Henrin said:

No, you're doing it to claim his arguments are invalid. Who do you think you're fooling with this?

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His motive is the reason that his arguments are invalid. The only one being fooled, somehow, is you because I have been pretty open about how and why he is wrong. To you too... you don't agree either, but you are still 100% wrong as well.

vesper said:

What's to prove? When you limit the diversity by making kids choose a handful of approved articles of clothing that does not allow any expression I think that pretty much makes the case for lack of diversity.

Heck some of these schools that have opted for uniforms have a list of backpacks, shoes and lunch boxes that will be acceptable. God forbid the Avengers or Captain America be on a child's lunch box. Idiots.

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You seem to think that what the kid wears dictates an inability to be an individual. That is what matters about diversity... not the superficial clothes on their back. You don't understand personality or psychology on the most fucndamental level apparently. Like I said, you are probably a kid. That is fine. Just doesn't give you enough experience to make a informed choice... and why adults make the rules too.

Henrin said:

Wow, so targeting the people that actually are the problem is a waste of time and effort? Seriously? It's not a waste of time and effort if you keep in mind that the number one goal is to maintain as much freedom as possible for all involved. Since the vast majority are doing nothing wrong there is no reason to act on them.

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The number one goal in education is to educate. It has nothing to do with freedom or anything close to it. That is why there are a ton of rules and kids get detentions, hearings, restorative meetings, suspended and rewarded based on the rules that adults set. You can't or won't see a distinction between out of school and in school. That is your loss.

Bodhisattva said:

You seem to think that what the kid wears dictates an inability to be an individual. That is what matters about diversity... not the superficial clothes on their back. You don't understand personality or psychology on the most fucndamental level apparently. Like I said, you are probably a kid. That is fine. Just doesn't give you enough experience to make a informed choice... and why adults make the rules too.

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And I suggest you not concern yourself with the choices of others nor is it significant that it be your opinion their choice of clothing is superficial. It's none of your business quite frankly. Your concern should be solely on what's on the backs of your own children.

vesper said:

I've already addressed my views on the need for rules and dress codes. It is up to the adults in charge to make sure those distractions are removed.

Those adults which include administrators who make a damn good wage should start earning their money the good people pay them.

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It seems that the teachers here, the ones that you want to make sure the distractions are removed, favor removing them by enforcing dress codes and uniforms. You tell us to do a job and then bitch and whine when we express what will solve the problem. You are part of the problem little buddy...

No nimrod, I don't support kids texting all day in school.

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But you don't want to stifle their freedom of expression, right? Seems hypocritical to me...

I've listen to the proponents of school uniforms claiming they would instill discipline and prevent gang-related violence.

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And they are correct. Why will you not listen to the educators?

vesper said:

And I suggest you not concern yourself with the choices of others nor is it significant that it be your opinion their choice of clothing is superficial. It's none of your business quite frankly. Your concern should be solely on what's on the backs of your own children.

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I am a teacher giving you expert opinion based off of years in the business and I am telling you what works.

Henrin said:

Overbearing parents and schools are just as bad as any one else that is overbearing on those that they govern. I don't happen to find oppression is a desirable way to obtain your goals. You can whip a kid everyday until they stop acting up or you can actually be a parent and stop abusing your authority. You can have laws on everything under the sun that might do harm and I'm sure you will have some sort of positive return for your efforts. Absolute rule is without question a very effective way to reach your goals no matter what they are and abuse of those you govern will no doubt come about if you practice it. There is no reason to doubt that many times loss of freedom could be argued is a positive thing and in many of those cases the argument will lean heavily towards the argument that it improved the behavior of those governed. Don't be surprised that I don't consider it a good one.

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Overbearing? You drag in straw man arguments about whipping, absolute rule, and oppression; NONE of which has anything to do with the issue.

Children would not be "oppressed" by wearing school uniforms, it would actually relieve them of the oppression of trying to "fit in" by being fashionable, even if they cannot afford it. Yes, other ills would still exist and they would still need to be addressed; but having to "look cool" or become an "outsider" would no longer be one of them. That's not even addressing the financial advantages, as well as the advantages to overall classroom discipline and focus on education.

Perhaps you need to assess your over-reaction to this suggestion. Your motivation is hard to understand, because you keep projecting skewed positions onto the rest of us that have no basis in any of the arguments used in support of this idea.

Bodhisattva said:

The number one goal in education is to educate. It has nothing to do with freedom or anything close to it. That is why there are a ton of rules and kids get detentions, hearings, restorative meetings, suspended and rewarded based on the rules that adults set. You can't or won't see a distinction between out of school and in school. That is your loss.

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Setting rules and punishments for misbehavior is the exact kind of behavior I expect, but what I don't expect is that if a child is doing nothing wrong they are acted on and allowed absolutely no freedom in how they are able to dress because someone else is bullying students. Why is it that innocent parties are being acted on because someone else is acting up? How is that justified?

Captain Adverse said:

Overbearing? You drag in straw man arguments about whipping, absolute rule, and oppression; NONE of which has anything to do with the issue.

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Controlling how someone dresses absolutely or very near to it is oppressive, it is overbearing and it is absolute in it's nature.

Children would not be "oppressed" by wearing school uniforms, it would actually relieve them of the oppression of trying to "fit in" by being fashionable, even if they cannot afford it. Yes, other ills would still exist and they would still need to be addressed; but having to "look cool" or become an "outsider" would no longer be one of them. That's not even addressing the financial advantages, as well as the advantages to overall classroom discipline and focus on education.

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There is no oppression from fitting in. It's a normal part of life that everyone has to deal with. To call natural occurrences oppression is absolute idiocy. I don't even care about the last two. Meh..

Henrin said:

Setting rules and punishments for misbehavior is the exact kind of behavior I expect, but what I don't expect is that if a child is doing nothing wrong they are acted on and allowed absolutely no freedom in how they are able to dress because someone else is bullying students. Why is it that innocent parties are being acted on because someone else is acting up? How is that justified?

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Wearing a uniform is not a punishment. You think that it is. You are wrong.

Most of the bullying that happens is way out of a teachers sight and control. The internet and text messaging is something we can not monitor. You don't like a great solution. Fine. Again, I am a teacher giving you an expert opinion based off of years of experience. You don't want to listen to me or to other educators.

Henrin said:

Controlling how someone dresses absolutely or very near to it is oppressive.

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You again show that you have no idea what it means to be a parent... or that you are perhaps a parent that has had the state take away your child due to you innane lack of rules philosophy.

Bodhisattva said:

Wearing a uniform is not a punishment. You think that it is. You are wrong.

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I never said it was punishment, but that it's acting on innocent parties that did nothing wrong. To act on innocent parties doesn't mean that you are necessarily issuing out a punishment.

Most of the bullying that happens is way out of a teachers sight and control. The internet and text messaging is something we can not monitor. You don't like a great solution. Fine. Again, I am a teacher giving you an expert opinion based off of years of experience. You don't want to listen to me or to other educators.

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What happens on the Internet or in text messaging is not your concern.

Bodhisattva said:

You again show that you have no idea what it means to be a parent... or that you are perhaps a parent that has had the state take away your child due to you innane lack of rules philosophy.

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Insulting my parenting ability is supposed to be what?

Henrin said:

Controlling how someone dresses absolutely or very near to it is oppressive, it is overbearing and it is absolute in it's nature.

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Only in your limited perspective. Being required to wear a school uniform during a limited period of time while in a school environment is not oppressive. It is not absolute because all the rest of the non-school day and on weekends kids can express their fashion senses to their little hearts desire. Now if I was saying that EVERYONE had to wear a uniform 24/7 year-round for the entirety of their lives...THAT would smack of "Big Brother."

Henrin said:

There is no oppression from fitting in. It's a normal part of life that everyone has to deal with. To call natural occurrences oppression is absolute idiocy. I don't even care about the last two. Meh..

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For a person arguing "free expression" it appears that you really don't care much about your own position. Otherwise you would NEVER have made the statement I underlined. In fact, you've pretty much undermined your own argument, since "uniformity" eases ones ability to "fit in."

This also exemplifies the complete and utter lack of logic in your responses.

Henrin said:

I never said it was punishment, but that it's acting on innocent parties that did nothing wrong. To act on innocent parties doesn't mean that you are necessarily issuing out a punishment.

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Sure sounds like you do:

Originally Posted by Henrin
Setting rules and punishments for misbehavior is the exact kind of behavior I expect

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You clearly indicate that by innocent parties having to wear a uniform because others misbehave is a punishment.

What happens on the Internet or in text messaging is not your concern.

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I know. But you want us to monitor bullying so that we can punish the bully insteado of issuing uniforms... we can't monitor most bullying, nor do we want to. So you set up an unwinnable situation for teachers and then complain about a solution. Thanks...

Insulting my parenting ability is supposed to be what?

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Oh, you have it wrong. I was not insutling your parenting ability... I was saying that you seem to havea complete lack of ability.

Captain Adverse said:

Only in your limited perspective. Being required to wear a school uniform during a limited period of time while in a school environment is not oppressive.

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Explain how it's not oppressive to restrict what they are allowed to wear to exactly what you tell them to wear.

It is not absolute because all the rest of the non-school day and on weekends kids can express their fashion senses to their little hearts desire. Now if I was saying that EVERYONE had to wear a uniform 24/7 year-round for the entirety of their lives...THAT would smack of "Big Brother."

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If we were talking about every minute of the day you would be right but since we are only talking about inside the walls of the school and the rules inside that environment you are just playing a little game here to avoid the issue.

For a person arguing "free expression" it appears that you really don't care much about your own position. Otherwise you would NEVER have made the statement I underlined. In fact, you've pretty much undermined your own argument, since "uniformity" eases ones ability to "fit in."

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Fitting in or not fitting in there is no oppression taking place. It's just a natural occurrence of people that we all must learn to deal with. Who exactly is oppressing you because you don't fit in?

Henrin said:

Explain how it's not oppressive to restrict what they are allowed to wear to exactly what you tell them to wear.

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Explain how a uniform is more oppressive or any different than telling a kid what time to be in class, where to sit in class, when they are allowed to talk, to stay in for lunch detention, when they can text, when they can open their book or write, etc. You have no argument bro... just get the hell over it.

Henrin said:

Explain how it's not oppressive to restrict what they are allowed to wear to exactly what you tell them to wear.

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Bodhisattva beat me to the answer for this one:

Bodhisattva said:

Explain how a uniform is more oppressive or any different than telling a kid what time to be in class, where to sit in class, when they are allowed to talk, to stay in for lunch detention, when they can text, when they can open their book or write, etc. You have no argument bro... just get the hell over it.

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

Henrin said:

If we were talking about every minute of the day you would be right but since we are only talking about inside the walls of the school and the rules inside that environment you are just playing a little game here to avoid the issue.

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See prior answer from Bodhisattva above.

Henrin said:

Fitting in or not fitting in there is no oppression taking place. It's just a natural occurrence of people that we all must learn to deal with. Who exactly is oppressing you because you don't fit in?

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Your argument has no merit. It is entirely emotional, and consistently ignores what has already been presented to you. The only person avoiding the issue is you, in a vain attempt to press a "freedom of expression" argument in an environment where children already have outlets for that expression that don't involve the fancy duds you bought them. Is it really the kids expression you are worried about? Or could it possibly be the thrill YOU get buying them stuff to impress their freinds with? LOL

Bodhisattva said:

I am a teacher giving you expert opinion based off of years in the business and I am telling you what works.

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A dress code isn't the way the real world operates and a concern of all educators should be to prepare a student for the real world. Whether you accept it or not, school uniforms
diminish free expression in our youth at a time when young people are trying desperately to establish who they are as an individual. There's no shortage of collectivist thinkers in academia. They tend to go hand in hand these days. So something like the importance of individuality goes over your head. That is why your support as an educator for forced uniforms doesn't come as any surprise. For it is a stellar example of collectivism. Unfortunately collectivism produces followers not leaders. Pity you don't want to take the effort to nurture and encourage individuality for that is where leaders and innovators arise.