Perception seems to be the problem here, more so than actual disagreement.
I say the rich don't work for their money, and many of you who think you are rich, but are so very far from it, are offended because you know damn good and well that you work hard.
I say the poor work the hardest and defend them with passion, and people assume I must be poor, otherwise I would not care about the poor.
One of you gives examples of the poor who do not need help by mentioning TV's, computers, and cell phones. But when I present proof that it is easy to have all of these things for free, that part is ignored and I am attacked personally instead of debating substance. Some of that was my own fault I suppose.
I entered this thread because I saw a one sentence response to the "Jesus was a socialist" themed argument, that I thought was really good. Good to the point of being worthy of a rebuttal. Essentially, the point was that Jesus was about individual charity, not societal.
Now I'd like to do all of us a favor by attempting to steer this thing back towards the topic heading and away from pettiness.
Debating the issues surrounding the working poor is riddled with problems.
One problem is that people have vastly different definitions of poor, and even more vastly different definitions of rich.
The largest problem is that many of you think of people gaming the system, or lazy people when you see the poor. Even though it is a fact that most of the poor work very hard doing the most difficult jobs life has to offer.
The reason that this conversation seems to make little sense thus far, is that everyone is discussing completely different things while thinking that they are having the same discussion.
The 1% has somehow managed to have those who make little defend their position to those that make very little.
I made the point earlier that those who make lots, do not work for it. I get jumped all over by people who make little, but think they make lots.
Just to find out that one of the main people jumping on me also agrees that those who make lots, "do not work for it".
None of that crap matters.
The point that I began with (the religious one) is as follows: I liked the Individual Responsibility response and agree it has merit. I feel that would work great if we only had a few million who suffer. But these are not biblical times. Our entire society has fractured. We have over 100 million working poor in this Country by my standards. By anyone's standards we have at least 40 million. Are you familiar with the Walmart debates? Do you realize that almost every single one of their employees is on some type of social government welfare?
When I make these points and you read them and your thoughts are, "But I make 6 figures and can support my family", my response to you is that you and I are not the topic of this conversation. We are not among the 100 million+ that I advocate for.
And if you have a government job, or are an officer in the military, you are also not the topic of this debate.
Go take a drive down the main suburb street of any town with about 100,000 people and play a game with me. Take note as you drive down the road. Look at each establishment and then try to imagine what each person makes as you drive by. I did this earlier today. I passed store after shop after shop and after 30 to 50 places that all pay less than 10 dollars per hour, I came to the power company. Then later I came to the hospital, but only after thousands of jobs that are sub poverty.
The problem is very evident based on your reactions. YOU think that YOU are the ones that are needed to equalize the poor. You fail to realize that you are so very far from being rich. In the eyes of the top 1%, your 100,000 income is no different than the homeless Walmart stock boy. Neither of you register to the guy with the 40,000,000.00 income.
But that guy sure gets a chuckle to watch you be the one that defends him, especially when he realizes that YOU think you ARE him.
Church charity and donations do not, can not, and can never fix this. The problem is much more vast than that. And the problem is clearly growing.
The working poor are getting larger every decade.
Half the time debate is simply faulty because of everyone placing different values on all of the issues.
And the other half of the time debate is dishonest because dishonest debate has become the new political norm.
Until these things are fixed, I do not know that a solution is possible.
Ok so this is how I believe that all of the above ties in very nicely with the topic heading:
Communism will never happen in America through the front door. And whereas social programs are essential to a strong Capitalistic system, a Socialist Government is equally as unlikely through the front door.
But both are very possible and rather likely to happen through the back door if the above problems of 100 million working poor and 30 million uninsured are not fixed.
Some of the Conservatives seem to think I am a socialist or worse, but I am not. I believe strongly in Capitalism, but only if it is regulated and controlled. Greed left unchecked turns into disease. And right now our Nation is full of disease.
The irony to me is that I would think the Strong Conservative types would want to fix these problems even more than me.
I see so many posts in here that indicate that you Right Wingers think that true socialism is coming, or communism is coming. So why are you so unwilling to stop it? If it comes it will come by way of governmental collapse due to the poor growing too vast, the hatred too strong, and the dishonesty too impossible.
A living wage for the poor and a couple of social programs would prevent our collapse and would prevent outright socialism from taking hold. (or worse).
The irony is that we have similar goals for our Nation, but because we can not agree, we will end up having exactly what neither of us want.