View Poll Results: Is communism possible in the USA?

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  • Yes, Soviet type of communism

    12 10.62%
  • Yes, community type of communism

    14 12.39%
  • Yes, religious type of communism

    2 1.77%
  • Yes, other type of communism

    14 12.39%
  • No, not possible

    61 53.98%
  • Dunno

    3 2.65%
  • Other

    7 6.19%
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Thread: Is communism possible in the USA?

  1. #521
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    According to Marxists, your labor would hold no value because it has no tangential, direct, or measurable help to the task being completed.

    This is why China went backwards so far during the Great Leap Forward. Ironic.
    Do you follow the austrian school, not sure if all Libertarians do?
    Sometimes - history needs a push.
    Vladimir Lenin

  2. #522
    better late than pregnant
    Gonzo Rodeo's Avatar
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jag2594 View Post
    Sorry misunderstanding, there are jobs that are in need of people to do paper work. I meant someone overlooking the whole thing, like a CEO or share holder. Desk Positions that needed for a production and are very important.
    CEOs work. CEOs probably work longer days than anyone else under them. It is the supreme coordinating position. And shareholders get votes. This means they have to educate themselves and attend meetings, or else their money will evaporate.

    Again, it seems we are arguing the definition of "work". You seem to be under the impression that someone not turning a wrench is simply milking the system.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  3. #523
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    CEOs work. CEOs probably work longer days than anyone else under them. It is the supreme coordinating position. And shareholders get votes. This means they have to educate themselves and attend meetings, or else their money will evaporate.

    Again, it seems we are arguing the definition of "work". You seem to be under the impression that someone not turning a wrench is simply milking the system.
    If the CEO and shareholder stop participating, will the production continue ?
    Sometimes - history needs a push.
    Vladimir Lenin

  4. #524
    double secret probation AngryOldGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jag2594 View Post
    If the CEO and shareholder stop participating, will the production continue ?
    No son, it would come to a screeching halt.

  5. #525
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryOldGuy View Post
    No son, it would come to a screeching halt.
    maybe, increasing workers conscious will bypass ownership.
    Sometimes - history needs a push.
    Vladimir Lenin

  6. #526
    double secret probation AngryOldGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jag2594 View Post
    maybe, increasing workers conscious will bypass ownership.
    yeah just mebbe complete sentences would be more understandable 2

  7. #527
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by jag2594 View Post
    maybe, increasing workers conscious will bypass ownership.
    mebbe the janitor will be better equipped to renegotiate the parts contract from the overseas supplier
    and make better decisions regarding next years corporate tax policy when he meets with the drillpress operator
    that took over for the CFO?

  8. #528
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Org View Post
    I'd like to challenge that by making four points:

    1. Incompetency can occur, whiter there is one leader, or ten, or twenty. If anything, group decision making is more effective, just based on the volume of cognitive capital. So no, there doesn't need to be "somebody to make decisions", there just needs to be a way of making them effectively.
    2. I disagree that workers "lack the necessary knowledge to make good decisions". Especially in their field - because each department/group has a degree of autonomy, following a similar model to Agile Product Development -, workers are experts, making them best equipped to make decisions in that field.
    3. Knowing that workers can be effective self-managers removes the need for a capitalist and the profit model. Profits and non-productive employees come with a cost to productive employees (decreasing their pay) and consumers (Increasing prices.) So from an efficiency standpoint, worker-ownership is the way to go.
    3. I've regularly attended meetings of the post-national-disintegration Occupy. Their operations are wildly efficient. There's a larger organizing body, which consists of all the group's members. This body is presented proposals to vote on by smaller groups, called working groups. These proposals come with an argument for why they should be carried out, followed by a short period of debate, and a straw poll. The working groups, in their case, are open to any member, and contributions are based on merit - the person who's best at a certain thing will do it. G.A. Cohen's ideas of socialist EoA and community are very prevalent. People provide their services not because they're forced to, or paid to, but because they genuinely want to. And because they know that if they don't, things won't get done and it'll all fall apart. ---- I see very real applications for this in the workplace. It happens quite a bit, as I showed in an earlier post, and it'll likely be happening a lot more.
    Have you ever heard the phrase, "Too many cooks in the kitchen"? What you are essentially saying is that expert workers are in the position to know best practices, and you are partially correct, yet you ignore the fact that limited resources have to be split between multiple branches in any organization, which leads to the singular question of "who get's what and when?". Decisions need to be made on a constant basis with the big picture in mind; experts tend to take a myopic view of their area of expertise, which leads to the requirement of "Generalist experts"... which is what we call a Manager. Sure, workers can be effective self-managers, yet only with proper motivation (read: incentives) and not for every position. If the fry cook's pay was dependent on how many fries they upsold at the cash register, they'd probably sell a lot more fries, yet working the register isn't their job; division of labor (which gives us specialization and advantage in the first place) often rightfully separates incentive from actual production. In all reality, a worker's pay can be subsidized through stock option and/or direct take from daily profits to some degree, but this just simply isn't possible in all situations. If every cashier and fry cook in the McDonald's franchise had a stake of their store, it wouldn't be enough to make them work that much harder... unless their stake was so high that the store then becomes an unviable business. Who would put up their money (resources) in order to give others wildly increased opportunity at the expense of taking all of the risk? This is why the Soviet system failed and why the Chinese system eventually adopted a more market-based approach. The system just works, even if some of the "less fortunate" allow themselves to get thrown under the bus. It's not a strict meritocracy by any means, but market/capitalistic systems have inherent motivation by way of reward. No planned market system will ever reach the efficiency or efficacy of a capitalist market system. It's just human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by jag2594 View Post
    If the CEO and shareholder stop participating, will the production continue ?
    How is Apple doing without Steve Jobs?
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 08-16-13 at 07:23 PM.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  9. #529
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryOldGuy View Post
    mebbe the janitor will be better equipped to renegotiate the parts contract from the overseas supplier
    and make better decisions regarding next years corporate tax policy when he meets with the drillpress operator
    that took over for the CFO?

    workers will own the negotiation, Janitor job is to clean. HE will negotiate the clean department with other workers.
    Sometimes - history needs a push.
    Vladimir Lenin

  10. #530
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    "negotiation" isn't in his Union contract to the sub-assemblies won't be delivered the line will stop the customers will go elsewhere to company a that isn't run by janitors?

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