View Poll Results: Is communism possible in the USA?

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  • Yes, Soviet type of communism

    12 10.62%
  • Yes, community type of communism

    14 12.39%
  • Yes, religious type of communism

    2 1.77%
  • Yes, other type of communism

    14 12.39%
  • No, not possible

    61 53.98%
  • Dunno

    3 2.65%
  • Other

    7 6.19%
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Thread: Is communism possible in the USA?

  1. #241
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Well, if it is voluntary, it ain't Communism - or even socialism. I know, I know, semantics; but, as a Polish writer said half a century ago, "The next world war will not be fought over resources or ideology - it will be fought over semantics".
    I understand the difference. The issue is this argument is just a front for all the things that are done by current politicians that people label as "communist". I see this thread as a debate for increasing the minimum wage, socialized medicine, and reducing corporatism; not really a support of Marxism.

    Oh, but it is not. Ultimately the only real issue is freedom of choice. (Of course, I would say that, as a libertarian).
    There's no such thing as choice when an ultimatum is involved; Work or starve isn't much of a choice. The typical libertarian argument for a free market is that it's a choice between wages and positions, but it's simply not valid in the modern age; there is no labor shortage or booming industry, your choices have been limited to work or starve.

    All of these "choices" are due to scarcity; in a post-scarcity society, you'd have a choice of live or work and live better. When "starve" is the other option, it's not a choice.

    Modern exploitation is only valid in an age of scarcity, whether it's authentic or artificial. I have always said that our scarcity is artificial; there is enough food, water, land, energy, and automated labor to support a basic standard of living for every man, woman, and child; just "living", should be an option already.

  2. #242
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Forced healthcare. How horrible.

    Well, it sure beats torture and secret renditions...aka Bushcare.
    Everything with Bush Obama made worse, but sheeple will continue to scream bush

  3. #243
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The world is not so tiny a place as you imagine, nor people so selfish. The market does only work when profit is the goal. Which is why the market is an illusion and a pipe dream. That is why the market will soon be obsolete, if it isn't already.
    So who will pick up the trash?

    You seem to think I'm selling my fellow man short, but there's a reason why they put trash cans every ten feet at Disney World - studies have shown that is as far as the average person is willing to walk to throw something away vs just tossing it on the ground. And in this post-scarcity, non-profit world, we will still NEED people to pick up after other people. Now, I got together with some other deep thinkers, and we took a vote: we voted you to pick up the trash. Good luck.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  4. #244
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    So who will pick up the trash?

    You seem to think I'm selling my fellow man short, but there's a reason why they put trash cans every ten feet at Disney World - studies have shown that is as far as the average person is willing to walk to throw something away vs just tossing it on the ground. And in this post-scarcity, non-profit world, we will still NEED people to pick up after other people. Now, I got together with some other deep thinkers, and we took a vote: we voted you to pick up the trash. Good luck.
    It's unlikely that I would end up with such a job, since it would waste my talents, but picking up trash for an hour a week is a very small price to pay for a comfortable life. Sounds like a fine deal to me. Why do you think that you're too good to do that?

    And you do sell your fellow people short (and you don't consider women at all). If our society were not so mired in selfishness, people wouldn't be so lazy as to throw trash on the ground like that.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  5. #245
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    It's unlikely that I would end up with such a job, since it would waste my talents, but picking up trash for an hour a week is a very small price to pay for a comfortable life. Sounds like a fine deal to me. Why do you think that you're too good to do that?

    And you do sell your fellow people short (and you don't consider women at all). If our society were not so mired in selfishness, people wouldn't be so lazy as to throw trash on the ground like that.
    "Since it would waste my talents."

    That's a neat turn of phrase. I, for one, can't think of a single person in this world with the self esteem to think they are only fit for picking up trash and thus not wasting the valuable time of the likes of you and me (<--- tongue in cheek). The last Socialist I had lengthy interaction with was absolutely convinced this new world order would happen in his day, and his new job would be.... a socialist. He was determined that his job would be leading groups and making decisions. My, that's kind of a lofty self-image, isn't it?

    Why, in the new world, I would CLEARLY be the President. If only everyone would put all of their things in the communal pot...
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  6. #246
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    No. But those are not core ideas or motivations of communism.
    They most certainly are, as demonstrated by history.

  7. #247
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artevelde View Post
    Communism is inherently anti-democratic, totalitarian and bloodthirsty. The historical record is there to prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artevelde View Post
    So you feel Jesus was in favour of mass-murder and brutal oppression?
    You seem to be confusing the unrealistic ideals on which Communism is based with the empirical results of every attempt that has been made to put those ideals into practice.

    Marx did not intent or expect that trying to follow his ideals would lead to mass-murder and brutal oppression. He was, of course, very much mistaken.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  8. #248
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    You seem to be confusing the unrealistic ideals on which Communism is based with the empirical results of every attempt that has been made to put those ideals into practice.

    Marx did not intent or expect that trying to follow his ideals would lead to mass-murder and brutal oppression. He was, of course, very much mistaken.
    Marx was very much in favour of bloodshed and brutal oppression and was very explicit about this.

  9. #249
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    So you understood part of the sentence, not the whole. Just because someone inherits money does not mean they will be able to keep it. If the lack the "merit" to keep it they lose it. An Aristocracy however, the don't lose it because their position is part of law.
    So it's OK to have the aristocracy as long as they can demonstrate an ability to retain power instead of achieving it for themselves? Some meritocracy!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  10. #250
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by artevelde
    They most certainly are, as demonstrated by history.
    It really doesn't seem possible that history (i.e. the things that happened...or perhaps more perspicuously, the stories we tell about the things that happened) could reveal what someone's ideas and motivations were or are. The best it can do is give us a clue about them, but with some obvious caveats. To say otherwise, you may as well claim that (for example) business owners who start a business but fail intend to fail, or that someone whose house is struck by a tornado wanted their house to be struck by a tornado, or that Albert Einstein and Marie Curie intended for people to make nuclear bombs.

    I wonder if you could point out where, in The Communist Manifesto, Marx explicitly called for systematic bloodshed and oppression. He thought there would be a revolution, of course...but you can say that about any numer of proponents of democracy and market economics. You could also say that about Jesus--indeed, it was his anti-establishment rhetoric that got him crucified in the first place. So, show us where Marx thought it should be necessary to do massive and cruel violence over and above what was necessary to revoke the established social order.

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