View Poll Results: Is communism possible in the USA?

Voters
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  • Yes, Soviet type of communism

    12 10.62%
  • Yes, community type of communism

    14 12.39%
  • Yes, religious type of communism

    2 1.77%
  • Yes, other type of communism

    14 12.39%
  • No, not possible

    61 53.98%
  • Dunno

    3 2.65%
  • Other

    7 6.19%
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Thread: Is communism possible in the USA?

  1. #231
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryOldGuy View Post
    take as many of them with you as you can ?
    "When he opened the forth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, 'Come!' And I looked and behold, a pale horse! And it's rider's name was Death, and Hell followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beast of the earth"-- Rev 6, 7-8.

    Let the socialist be warned then, I am coming and hell is coming with me.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  2. #232
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    People advocating for socialism have their own definitions of what scarcity "really means." The Zeitgeist video, for example, posits that post-scarcity, modern, socialist cities of the future will only need 3% of the population to maintain. And where, exactly, does this 3% come from? Needing ANYTHING is the textbook antonym of post-scarcity. Unless you're comfortable with slavery, as long as it's just "3%".

    We will continue to live with scarcity until the very moment we can synthesize anything we need from a raw stock of atoms, up to and including being able to synthesize more synthesizers. And even then, post-scarcity for the human race will only last as long as there is an abundant amount of atoms in relation to the population. True and eternal scarcity is a myth, born in the land of milk and honey.
    Why would you assume that 3% of people would do all the work? If everyone contributes, that's a few hours of work a week. Probably less. How is this a difficult concept? Everyone contributing is what we already expect of people. Only instead of half the population living in poverty, everyone lives a comfortable life. All at the simple cost of no one being absurdly rich, which no one needs to be anyway. Horrible, isn't it?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  3. #233
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    If everyone contributes,
    And that's your problem, right there. Which few are going to have to go through rigorous education in order to perform the higher order functions? Which ones are going to be the garbage men?

    Unless you institute slavery, the only system ever contrived that allows for all the work getting done is a market-based reward system, i.e. capitalism. It's a catch-22, because the market only works when profit is the goal, and if there is no profit (no scarcity), then there is no mechanism to make it work... nor a need! But again, we're back to talking about a post scarcity society, and if even one hour of labor is required, we aren't post-scarcity.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  4. #234
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    And that's your problem, right there. Which few are going to have to go through rigorous education in order to perform the higher order functions? Which ones are going to be the garbage men?

    Unless you institute slavery, the only system ever contrived that allows for all the work getting done is a market-based reward system, i.e. capitalism. It's a catch-22, because the market only works when profit is the goal, and if there is no profit (no scarcity), then there is no mechanism to make it work... nor a need! But again, we're back to talking about a post scarcity society, and if even one hour of labor is required, we aren't post-scarcity.
    The world is not so tiny a place as you imagine, nor people so selfish. The market does only work when profit is the goal. Which is why the market is an illusion and a pipe dream. That is why the market will soon be obsolete, if it isn't already.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  5. #235
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Envy and Power-Lust? No. Collectivism is about selflessness by definition. That's like saying, "We shouldn't teach kids to share, that'll lead to envy and power-lust." What is so uncivilized about sharing?
    You are obviously using some bespoke definitions of "Communism" and "collectivism". When people say "Communism", it usually means the Marxist-Leninist totalitarian ideology.

    As for collectivism, it is, in practice, about "selflessness" indeed, but not the kind that leads to voluntary sharing. It is about refusing to see people as individuals with their unique selves, endowed with freedom of choice. Instead, people are viewed as members of some group, sometimes absolutely abstract or made-up, like the "kulaks" and "podkulachniks" Soviet Communists exterminated.

  6. #236
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Yup, Marx and most early Communists had a very distinct dislike of religion. That really has absolutely nothing to do with Communism itself, though.
    I would agree. Historical Communism had positioned himself as a revolutionary ideology striving to overturn the existing order, of which religious institutions were an integral part. There's no special reason why future analogs - facing, in all probability a deeply secular "ancien régime" - cannot arrive marching with crosses or under green banners. Major religions surely supply plenty of fuel for social demagoguery.

  7. #237
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    You are obviously using some bespoke definitions of "Communism" and "collectivism". When people say "Communism", it usually means the Marxist-Leninist totalitarian ideology.

    As for collectivism, it is, in practice, about "selflessness" indeed, but not the kind that leads to voluntary sharing. It is about refusing to see people as individuals with their unique selves, endowed with freedom of choice. Instead, people are viewed as members of some group, sometimes absolutely abstract or made-up, like the "kulaks" and "podkulachniks" Soviet Communists exterminated.
    Agreed, both Marx and Lenin proposed dictatorships/totalitarianism as a necessary phase in the path to communism. We have more knowledge than they did; there's a 100+ years of failures to learn from. We now know that a dictatorship simply can't be tolerated, it always goes bad. For the context of this question, no classical Communism will ever be possible in the US, because it will never be proposed again. It's like saying whether the whig party will win the 2016 election; it's not even a possibility.

    When most people talk about "communism", they're either the kind who know nothing about it and are just afraid of "isms", or they mean some neo-marxist or completely new proposal that works within the current system. Very, very, few are actually referring to somesort of Marxist-Leninist revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I would agree. Historical Communism had positioned himself as a revolutionary ideology striving to overturn the existing order, of which religious institutions were an integral part. There's no special reason why future analogs - facing, in all probability a deeply secular "ancien régime" - cannot arrive marching with crosses or under green banners. Major religions surely supply plenty of fuel for social demagoguery.
    To make myself perfectly clear, I'm as afraid of a Communist revolution as I am a Religious revolution. I propose that collective wealth distribution can be implemented with a peaceful transition; using a rise of non-profit organizations, employee owned/operated corporations, and unions.

    Ultimately the only real issue is scarcity, whether it's authentic or artificial; if a technological breakthrough created a post-scarcity society, capitalism and employment would be voluntary to begin with. There are two ways to "fix" unemployment; create more jobs or less competing workers; if people didn't "need" to work, there'd be less people looking for jobs and a resultant decrease in unemployment rates. Many people have proposed a basic income or living wage, to give all people a choice to either work for wages or collect a subsidy for staying out of the workforce. This isn't a high strain on capitalism, since it creates more consumers.

    As many people have stated, most Americans are favorable of Communism, as long as you call it something else.

  8. #238
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Aye, dear. As I said, not while I'm alive. So if things keep going, then dying time is getting nearer. But, I won't be going that path alone.
    Many before us sacrificed and died to ensure that we might experience the American Dream and it is now our responsibility to pass The Dream on to the next generation_

    I don't want my generation to be remembered as the one that failed when the torch was passed to us_
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  9. #239
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    but while we WILL leave them trillions in debt
    at least they will have Obamacare

  10. #240
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    Re: Is communism possible in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    It's like saying whether the whig party will win the 2016 election; it's not even a possibility.
    In precisely the same form and shape - of course not. But the same extreme statist tyranny could come with similar slogans (while "wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross", for instance).

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    When most people talk about "communism", they're either the kind who know nothing about it and are just afraid of "isms", or they mean some neo-marxist or completely new proposal that works within the current system. Very, very, few are actually referring to somesort of Marxist-Leninist revolution.
    I think we are talking about different sets of "most people". Most people in college cafeterias of Amherst, MA or Boulder, CO - perhaps. Most people in Russia, China, Poland, Korea, Ethiopia, etc, etc (i.e. most people in the world) know "communism" as that Communism.

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    using a rise of non-profit organizations, employee owned/operated corporations, and unions.
    Well, if it is voluntary, it ain't Communism - or even socialism. I know, I know, semantics; but, as a Polish writer said half a century ago, "The next world war will not be fought over resources or ideology - it will be fought over semantics".

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Ultimately the only real issue is scarcity.
    Oh, but it is not. Ultimately the only real issue is freedom of choice. (Of course, I would say that, as a libertarian).

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