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What is your level of formal education?

I have completed the following formal educations

  • None or very little

    Votes: 2 2.6%
  • Attended school, but did not graduate

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • GED or graduated from high school

    Votes: 18 23.7%
  • Some college

    Votes: 17 22.4%
  • 2 year college degree

    Votes: 15 19.7%
  • 4 year college degree

    Votes: 26 34.2%
  • formal education based technical degree/certification

    Votes: 15 19.7%
  • Military or other past-high school degree

    Votes: 10 13.2%
  • Lawyer, doctor, other high education degree

    Votes: 5 6.6%
  • Masters/PhD

    Votes: 27 35.5%

  • Total voters
    76
The University at which I teach allows for those with a Juris Doctorate to teach law and some lower level political science courses, the latter as an adjunct. In many cases it depends on the school, at least from my experience. Some people are appalled and offended that anyone would consider a J.D. a "doctorate." Others are not so picky. And, depending on the law school one attends, much of the curriculum is comparable to that of graduate school. So in reality, it is a bit of a gray area, again, the bulk of which is due to different schools.

I have a JD/MBA and it has always been treated as a dual masters for academic purposes. If someone treats it as a Phd. equivalent it would be news to me. Along the lines of what you indicated though, outside of law school and adjunct positions it is not particularly useful for someone who wants a full-time professorship and be treated as a Phd. would be.
 
And they aren't addressed by their students as "doctor"?! How are they listed when they present at academic conferences? I ask because although creative writing folks don't generally present at the same ones, they do at a few biggies, and they are always introduced with that honorific title.

I am certainly not declaring you wrong by any means, for there is much of which I am ignorant, but I too have not not seen the title of "doctor" conferred upon an individual with an MFA. I worked as an adjunct with an MFA (also working as an adjunct) when I was working on my doctorate. Both of us were simply referred to as "Mister."
 
It was a first name basis where I went.

That doesn't surprise me; those creative writing folks are a breed apart. As for me (old-school), even after I became a colleague, I never could call one of my own profs by his first name. Ever.
 
JD's are not considered terminal degrees. LLM's are above them

Fair enough. But how many LLM's do you see teaching at law schools? Not many.
 
I have a JD/MBA and it has always been treated as a dual masters for academic purposes. If someone treats it as a Phd. equivalent it would be news to me. Along the lines of what you indicated though, outside of law school and adjunct positions it is not particularly useful for someone who wants a full-time professorship and be treated as a Phd. would be.

You're certainly right on the latter part. As for the former, I suppose I should clarify. In most instances, though eligible to teach law, the J.D. is considered a Master's level title, though often times the, I suppose, "spiritual" title of "doctor" is applied in the classroom. Though, I'd imagine in correspondence, insofar as academic work is concerned, one would still be considered as having a masters.

Forgive me; apparently I was under the impression you thought one must have a PhD in order to teach law. While on the subject, I might add, it is often more beneficial to have a J.D. instruct a law class. Experience versus theory, for what it's worth.
 
You're certainly right on the latter part. As for the former, I suppose I should clarify. In most instances, though eligible to teach law, the J.D. is considered a Master's level title, though often times the, I suppose, "spiritual" title of "doctor" is applied in the classroom. Though, I'd imagine in correspondence, insofar as academic work is concerned, one would still be considered as having a masters.

Forgive me; apparently I was under the impression you thought one must have a PhD in order to teach law. While on the subject, I might add, it is often more beneficial to have a J.D. instruct a law class. Experience versus theory, for what it's worth.

Well I am of the opinion that adjuncts who are actual active practitioners will teach you more than those who run to teaching as a life boat. There are not enough of the former and too many of the latter in law schools IMO.
 
I have a JD/MBA and it has always been treated as a dual masters for academic purposes. If someone treats it as a Phd. equivalent it would be news to me. Along the lines of what you indicated though, outside of law school and adjunct positions it is not particularly useful for someone who wants a full-time professorship and be treated as a Phd. would be.

Hmm, I got this from (of course) Wikipedia which discusses "professional degrees":

Professional doctorates are awarded in certain fields where scholarly research is closely aligned with a particular profession, such as law, medicine, or psychology. Examples include the US and Canadian degrees of Doctor of Medicine (M.D.), Doctor of Optometry (O.D.), Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm. D.), Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.), Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.), Doctor of Dental Medicine (D.M.D.), Juris Doctor (J.D.), and Doctor of Ministry (D.Min).

Please explain how every other listed "professional degree" awarding the level "doctorate" may use the honorific "Doctor," except a lawyer? America invented the professional doctorate with the first MD awarded by Columbia U. in 1767. The J.D. in 1870.

I have a J.D. and an M.A. in history. I was told by my school one was a doctorate and one was not. I don't go around calling myself "Dr." or have it on any of my cards. I just never considered it that deeply before.
 
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Well I am of the opinion that adjuncts who are actual active practitioners will teach you more than those who run to teaching as a life boat. There are not enough of the former and too many of the latter in law schools IMO.

Well said, sir. I agree.
 
Well, the "D" in "JD" does stand for "doctor." Me, I wouldn't trust an attorney who styled him/herself in this way. Uncool. I have enough trouble with the convention of "esquire." I think this has changed, but it also used to be considered uncool in England for a physician to go by "doctor," and what was preferred was "Mr." I always thought it was really weird, but I think this has changed now.
 
Hmm, I got this from (of course) Wikipedia which discusses "professional degrees":



Please explain how every other listed "professional degree" awarding the level "doctorate" may use the honorific "Doctor," except a lawyer? America invented the professional doctorate with the first MD awarded by Columbia U. in 1767. The J.D. in 1870.

I think it likely an issue of both semantics, practice and a bit of arrogance here. A juris doctorate ought to, at least in my eyes, confer the title of "Doctor" upon those who have it, after all, as you said, all the aforementioned professional degrees have it conferred upon them. I speculate much of the issue comes from the fact that more often those with a J.D. practice rather than teach in academia, and given we have the more colloquial term of "council" or "attorney" for those with the degree, they are not, in general, referred to as "Doctor." And as for arrogance, and it is a sad truth, many in academia feel a J.D. should not be considered a "Doctorate" because a "Juris Doctorate" is somehow inherently easier to obtain or of less worth than a "Doctor of philosophy."
 
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I think it likely an issue of both semantics, practice and a bit of arrogance here. A juris doctorate ought to, at least in my eyes, confer the title of "Doctor" upon those who have it, after all, as you said, all the aforementioned professional degrees have it conferred upon them. I speculate much of the issue comes from the fact that more often those with a J.D. practice rather than teach in academia, and given we have the more colloquial term of "council" or "attorney" for those with the degree, they are not, in general, referred to as "Doctor." And as for arrogance, and it is a sad truth, many in academia feel a J.D. should not be considered a "Doctorate" because a "Juris Doctorate" is somehow inherently easier to obtain or of less worth that a "Doctor of philosophy."

Well I understood all that before going to law school. We did call our instructors "professor," but then again in both my prior undergraduate and graduate programs we also called our instructor's professor, most of whom had Ph.D's. I suppose they could have all "demanded" we call them Doctor, but they never did. As one of my peers here pointed out, contrary to another peer's position, all you need to teach law is a J.D. and time as a licensed attorney. I only know about D.S.J.'s because I looked up LL.M's to see about getting one for Criminal Defense. Universities offering D.S.J.'s appear to be fairly rare.

As for easy to obtain? Anyone who thinks that should apply and try to complete the ABA accredited programs...especially the first year and a half. That's when most student's tend to drop (or fail) out of the program.
 
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Is it paying off for you?

The education proved very worthwhile in and of itself. But yes, it also helped me on the path to a fairly interesting and succesful career.
 
Okay I have the definitive answer from the primary source, The American Bar Association. The ABA states that a J.D. and Ph.D. are equivalent; and individuals with a J.D. may use the title "Doctor" since they earned it.

This is the current American Bar Association Council Statement regarding the equivalency of a J.D. and a Ph.D....

http://www.americanbar.org/content/...2012_2013_council_statements.authcheckdam.pdf

2. J.D. Degree - Ph.D. Degree Equivalency

WHEREAS, the acquisition of a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree requires from 84 to 90 semester hours of post baccalaureate study and the Doctor of Philosophy degree usually requires 60 semester hours of post baccalaureate study along with the writing of a dissertation, the two degrees shall be considered as equivalent degrees for educational employment purposes;

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that all appropriate persons be requested to eliminate any policy, or practice, existing within their jurisdiction which disparages legal education or promotes discriminatory employment practices against J.D. degree-holders who hold academic appointment in education institutions.

...And ABA Model Code of Professional Responsibilty Rule 2-102(E) indicating the title derived from an earned degree may be used.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/cpr/mrpc/mcpr.authcheckdam.pdf

(E) -Nothing contained herein shall prohibit a lawyer from using or permitting the use of, in connection with his name, an earned degree or title derived therefrom indicating his training in the law.

Research into the intepretation indicates that several states using the above citations confer the right to the title "Doctor" on individuals who have earned a J.D. These include NY, TX, various local Bars in CA, etc. I didn't check ALL States, so look to your own.

NYSBA | Ethics Opinion 105a

http://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template...mplate=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11911

Ethics Opinions from the Bar Association of San Francisco

However, lawyer's opinions are split on the value using it because of possible confusion or negative peer/client opinions.

Is a J.D. a Doctorate? | LawSchooli.com

THE NUTMEG LAWYER: I Have a JD. I Want to Be Called Doctor Too.

Any Lawyer Who Calls Himself ‘Doctor’ Like a Ph.D. Should Get Punched in the Mouth « Above the Law: A Legal Web Site – News, Commentary, and Opinions on Law Firms, Lawyers, Law Schools, Law Suits, Judges and Courts + Career Resource

CONLUSION: A J.D. holder has a doctorate equal to any Ph.D holder. The ABA and various states indicate the title Doctor can be used, however check with your own State Bar for local confirmation. Having said that I do not advocate using it, this was simply to show YES, we are DOCTORS not holders of glorified Master's degrees.
 
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Okay I have the definitive answer from the primary source, The American Bar Association. The ABA states that a J.D. and Ph.D. are equivalent; and individuals with a J.D. may use the title "Doctor" since they earned it.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/...2012_2013_council_statements.authcheckdam.pdf

This is the current American Bar Association Council Statement regarding the equivalency of a J.D. and a Ph.D....



...And ABA Model Code of Professional Responsibilty Rule 2-102(E) indicating the title derived from an earned degree may be used.



Research into the intepretation indicates that several states using the above citations confer the right to the title "Doctor" on individuals who have earned a J.D. These include NY, TX, various local Bars in CA, etc.

NYSBA | Ethics Opinion 105a

http://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template...mplate=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11911

Ethics Opinions from the Bar Association of San Francisco

However, lawyer's opinions are split on the value using it because of possible confusion or negative peer/client opinions.

Is a J.D. a Doctorate? | LawSchooli.com

THE NUTMEG LAWYER: I Have a JD. I Want to Be Called Doctor Too.

Any Lawyer Who Calls Himself ‘Doctor’ Like a Ph.D. Should Get Punched in the Mouth « Above the Law: A Legal Web Site – News, Commentary, and Opinions on Law Firms, Lawyers, Law Schools, Law Suits, Judges and Courts + Career Resource

CONLUSION: A J.D. holder has a doctorate equal to any Ph.D holder. The ABA and various states indicate the title Doctor can be used, however check with your own State Bar for local confirmation. Having said that I do not advocate using it, this was simply to show YES, we are DOCTORS not holders of glorified Master's degrees.

On the whole I believe that most Law Schools tailor their JD programs to be more or less comparable to a PhD program in other disciplines. Some Law Schools, however, like Yale, offer an additional PhD in Law as a degree program for JD's who really want to pursue an academic career.
 
On the whole I believe that most Law Schools tailor their JD programs to be more or less comparable to a PhD program in other disciplines. Some Law Schools, however, like Yale, offer an additional PhD in Law as a degree program for JD's who really want to pursue an academic career.

True, but my research shows that the ABA doesn't consider the LL.M or any D.S.J., S.J.D., or D.J. degree to be "terminal" degrees. See the prior citation I used for equivalency in post #88. They only enhance the J.D..

From what I understand there are only 20 schools in the USA that offer one of the three "research" doctorates listed. LL.M's provide a higher level of specific expertise in certain fields, but they are limited to a few types of speciality law like Tax, and Corporate, etc. They are also not offered at all law schools.
 
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Damn attorneys.
 
bachelors and masters.
 
Yes, entirely too many of us. ;)
"The law is a ass — a idiot. If that’s the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by experience — by experience."
Dickens
 
None to very little. Flunked out of Kindergarten after failing nappy time and screwing up on graham crackers and milk.
 
"The law is a ass — a idiot. If that’s the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by experience — by experience."
Dickens

Yes, a quote from Mr Bumble in "Oliver Twist"....not the best source but still an apt one. LOL :)
 
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I have a degree in - wait - let me check. Yup. Crude Arts. Pretty exclusive territory there.
 
Bachelor's Degree in English, aka a BA in BS.

Went back for vocational training in '03-4 and came out Pro Tools Certified (music recording).

Neither of which have anything to do with how I make a living.
 
High school grad here.
Just enough college to know I didn't want to keep attending!!:lol:
 
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