View Poll Results: Which is more crucial

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  • Freedom of Religion

    26 56.52%
  • Mandate to Evolve

    10 21.74%
  • Both are equally crucial

    10 21.74%
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Thread: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

  1. #481
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    I got some time now so I figure I would go through and look at the lies, the undocumented claims and the distortions in your source.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    your stating to me, that if the schools teaches homosexuality is wrong...its oppression...which i buy that argument.

    then your stating to me if they dont teach homosexuality it right............its oppression........but i dont buy this one.

    explain to me how these are not oppression.


    Within months it was brought into the middle schools. In September, 2004, an 8th-grade teacher in Brookline, MA, told National Public Radio that the marriage ruling had opened up the floodgates for teaching homosexuality. “In my mind, I know that, `OK, this is legal now.' If somebody wants to challenge me, I'll say, `Give me a break. It's legal now,'” she told NPR. She added that she now discusses gay sex with her students as explicitly as she desires. For example, she said she tells the kids that lesbians can have vaginal intercourse using sex toys.
    The 8th grade teacher does not say that about the floodgates, but instead it is an anti-gay group representative. Further not mentioned is that she is a sex ed teacher. It is her job to discuss sex with kids. Also note that from the same NPR show it mentions: "In Massachusetts, local districts have broad discretion when it comes to sex ed, and schools range from this one in Brookline to many others that teach abstinence only or offer no sex ed at all." Damn local discretion, how dare local groups determine curriculum...

    By the following year it was in elementary school curricula. Kindergartners were given picture books telling them that same-sex couples are just another kind of family, like their own parents. In 2005, when David Parker of Lexington, MA – a parent of a kindergartner – strongly insisted on being notified when teachers were discussing homosexuality or transgenderism with his son, the school had him arrested and put in jail overnight.
    First, the book: Who's in a Family? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The David Parkjer who was arrested? The charge was trespassing after he refused to leave school grounds. His words: "Our parental requests for our own child were flat-out denied with no effort at accommodation. In our meeting on April 27, I, insisted that such accommodation be made and refused to leave the meeting room. I was informed that I would be arrested."


    Second graders at the same school were read a book, “King and King”, about two men who have a romance and marry each other, with a picture of them kissing. When parents Rob and Robin Wirthlin complained, they were told that the school had no obligation to notify them or allow them to opt-out their child.
    The book: King & King - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    From the appeal when the couple lost the first court case: "There is no evidence of systemic indoctrination. There is no allegation that [the second-grader] was asked to affirm gay marriage. Requiring a student to read a particular book is generally not coercive of free exercise rights"

    In 2006 the Parkers and Wirthlins filed a federal Civil Rights lawsuit to force the schools to notify parents and allow them to opt-out their elementary-school children when homosexual-related subjects were taught. The federal judges dismissed the case. The judges ruled that because same-sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts, the school actually had a duty to normalize homosexual relationships to children, and that schools have no obligation to notify parents or let them opt-out their children! Acceptance of homosexuality had become a matter of good citizenship!<-----force being applied!
    Ruling: http://www.massresistance.org/docs/p...iss_022307.pdf

    "In Brown, the First Circuit held that the
    constitutional right of parents to raise their children does not
    include the right to restrict what a public school may teach their
    children and that teachings which contradict a parent's religious
    beliefs do not violate their First Amendment right"

    And the court found that this case was indistinguishable from Brown.

    Think about that: Because same-sex marriage is “legal”, a federal judge has ruled that the schools now have a duty to portray homosexual relationships as normal to children, despite what parents think or believe!
    Actually what it ruled(same source) was that Mass. law banned discrimination based on orientation and and the curriculum has to encourage respect for all individuals regardless of, among other things, orientation. Basically, the case had zero legal basis under Mass. law.


    In 2006, in the elementary school where my daughter went to Kindergarten, the parents of a third-grader were forced to take their child out of school because a man undergoing a sex-change operation and cross-dressing was being brought into class to teach the children that there are now “different kinds of families.” School officials told the mother that her complaints to the principal were considered “inappropriate behavior.”
    I can find something happened, but not evidence of what exactly.

    Libraries have also radically changed. School libraries across the state, from elementary school to high school, now have shelves of books to normalize homosexual behavior and the lifestyle in the minds of kids, some of them quite explicit and even pornographic. Parents complaints are ignored or met with hostility.

    Over the past year, homosexual groups have been using taxpayer money to distribute a large, slick hardcover book celebrating homosexual marriage titled “Courting Equality” into every school library in the state.
    The book: About the Book | Courting Equality

    Yup, that's right, it is a book yelling about the events leading up to SSM legalization in Mass. How dare libraries carry it...

    It’s become commonplace in Massachusetts schools for teachers to prominently display photos of their same-sex “spouses” and occasionally bring them to school functions. Both high schools in my own town now have principals who are “married” to their same-sex partners, whom they bring to school and introduce to the students.
    So in other words SSM married teachers are treated like every one else, as the law requires...

    “Gay days” in schools are considered necessary to fight “intolerance” which may exist against same-sex relationships. Hundreds of high schools and even middle schools across the state now hold “gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender appreciation days”. They “celebrate” homosexual marriage and move forward to other behaviors such as cross-dressing and transsexuality. In my own town, a school committee member recently announced that combating “homophobia” is now a top priority.
    Not surprisingly there is no source for this claim and only two places mention it from a google search, the massresistance nutjob site source and WND from 2004. I can't prove it does not happen, but I can't find evidence it does.

    Once homosexuality has been normalized, all boundaries will come down. The schools are already moving on to normalizing transgenderism (including cross-dressing and sex changes). The state-funded Commission on Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Youth includes leaders who are transsexuals.

    How same-sex "marriage" affects Massachusetts
    So your source has proven to be one big pile of stinking ****. Every claim I looked at was either unsourced, misleading or wrong.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  2. #482
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not demonstrable, it exists only in someone's mind. Drop a ball a million times and the ball drops a million times. People can see that, photons can be measured, velocities recorded, etc. That's a reproducible measurement. People say "I saw X" or "I felt Y" are not repeatable measurements which can be demonstrated.
    This is why I said you don't understand, it wasn't to be rude or condescending, though I know it may have felt that way.

    I want to say this without offending you, know that isn't my intent.

    You are a single note person, you can only accept things that have been scientifically proven. Perhaps you simply think differently, I don't understand your thought process. You can't use science in a spiritual situation it's like using music to solve differential equations. Now understand please that I haven't completely abandoned science, it has it's place, but not in spirituality, it is an ineffective tool for that project. It's like using a paint brush to drive a nail. All that is to me isn't science.


    Sure, there are lots of people who are believers is one form of god or another, or otherwise spiritual. It's a strong desire of mankind, a natural consequence of intelligence to wonder what next and want to have an answer for it. It's not proof. It's personal testimony.
    it's proof enough for those that have it. Your rigor of proof isn't even on the same plane of existence. I agree April proof isn't scientific proof, but you would certainly agree that scientific things shouldn't be proven spiritually. If we go by that method a dude in the clouds throws lightening at the earth.

    Science can't began to touch spirituality and vise versa. You want a scientific definition, that isn't possible.but that doesn't mean because I can't paint with a hammer so to speak that there isn't proof, it's just proof that you don't accept.


    Things existed before humans, we have measured account of that. The world can exist without us, it has in the past.
    We measures that, if we didn't how would we have proof. All proof is, is the ability to convince others. Let's say for a minuet that you were the one human that existed, everything you thought would be absolutely proven because the only person to convince would be you, you would have 100% agreement in all fields of humanity.

    The reality is the things existed before humans and we know that only because we are able to perceive it. Again it is only our perception, measurements we dreamed up and instruments we created to tell us things about the past.

    Think of the world prior to the understanding of microscopic viruses and bacteria. Now we accept because we couldn't measure, we didn't even know what to measure that germs in the past with out our knowledge was what was making people sick. That of course means that germs didn't magically appear but we just never perceived them. Say you had a time machine and you went back in time and told people five hundred years ago that illness wasn't God being angry with you but tiny little organisms wreaking havoc on your biology. Nobody would believe you even if you had a micro scope that would be an evil device. So it is definitely perception that allows for proof.

    On top of that this may sound odd but we can't know the things that we do not know. Meaning the only answer to the question "what don't you know?" Is, I don't know.

    I don't think we as people have as much figured out as some people think we do. When you say universe I know you have a physics answer but that is limited by the language we invented called physics.

    We made everything up everything that we know, it can only be known by humanity until we find an alien race that can tell us otherwise. Where i imagine an alien race would be intrigued by our physics but I doubt they would use the same language. But until that happens all we have us what is in our mind.

  3. #483
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Wait a minute, teaching that homosexuality is okay is perfectly fine, meaning it's okay that you are gay. Teaching that homosexuality is right us not the same thing. Because that also says that heterosexuality is not as right.

    You are interchanging the words that mean permissible with words that mean correct. I don't agree that homosexuality is right, if my kid was heterosexual and a school said that isn't correct that would be unacceptable, my kid would be out of that school in an instant. Enrolled in a private school that day. But telling my homosexual son that it's okay that he is gay is very different.
    picket the school, sue, pies sexual harassment charges, do something. Don't just get outraged and expect the world to deal with it, GET INVOLVED IT'S YOUR KID FOR CHRIST SAKES. If you don't give a damn, I don't.
    They are, explain how they are not.
    if the moron knew that was going to be discussed, find another school before enrolling. I have no sympathy for lazy parents.


    So what, there are private schools and home schooling. Again lazy parents no sympathy.
    i agree with the judge. Did he rule that it is illegal to leave public school or leave the state? Again lazy no sympathy.
    solution, if parents disagree with the school, find alternative schools. There is no law mandating children attend public school. Parents approve of the curriculum by absenteeism. They don't care to learn the curriculum, they don't care to fight for their rights, they must not be that important.

    What is wrong with same sex marriage? Before you answer, there is a solution that doesn't involve the expense of private school, teach your kids that the school isn't always right about that. Lessons learned from parents have such a longer lasting affect. I often say "my father once told me..." I rarely or never tell people "My teacher once told Mr..." You have far more influence over your children if you are not a worthless parent.

    the only problem I have with this is the part where the Trans said now. There have always been different families. see the above post for the complaint of the parents.

    proof.

    So what?
    So what, should the state say they can't? If so same for heterosexuals.

    Private school.

    Good, it's about time.

    look, homosexuality is normal, it is okay, and all these complaints are either lazy parents or xenophobia. This all falls on deaf ears as it should.
    this is only your point of view, its not shared by other people.

    as stated before... parents are not given their tax money , and are mandated to send their children to public schools, where they have been told they will comply.

    as a libertarian, ....you have to know the power of force is never acceptable.

  4. #484
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I got some time now so I figure I would go through and look at the lies, the undocumented claims and the distortions in your source.



    The 8th grade teacher does not say that about the floodgates, but instead it is an anti-gay group representative. Further not mentioned is that she is a sex ed teacher. It is her job to discuss sex with kids. Also note that from the same NPR show it mentions: "In Massachusetts, local districts have broad discretion when it comes to sex ed, and schools range from this one in Brookline to many others that teach abstinence only or offer no sex ed at all." Damn local discretion, how dare local groups determine curriculum...



    First, the book: Who's in a Family? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The David Parkjer who was arrested? The charge was trespassing after he refused to leave school grounds. His words: "Our parental requests for our own child were flat-out denied with no effort at accommodation. In our meeting on April 27, I, insisted that such accommodation be made and refused to leave the meeting room. I was informed that I would be arrested."




    The book: King & King - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    From the appeal when the couple lost the first court case: "There is no evidence of systemic indoctrination. There is no allegation that [the second-grader] was asked to affirm gay marriage. Requiring a student to read a particular book is generally not coercive of free exercise rights"



    Ruling: http://www.massresistance.org/docs/p...iss_022307.pdf

    "In Brown, the First Circuit held that the
    constitutional right of parents to raise their children does not
    include the right to restrict what a public school may teach their
    children and that teachings which contradict a parent's religious
    beliefs do not violate their First Amendment right"

    And the court found that this case was indistinguishable from Brown.



    Actually what it ruled(same source) was that Mass. law banned discrimination based on orientation and and the curriculum has to encourage respect for all individuals regardless of, among other things, orientation. Basically, the case had zero legal basis under Mass. law.




    I can find something happened, but not evidence of what exactly.



    The book: About the Book | Courting Equality

    Yup, that's right, it is a book yelling about the events leading up to SSM legalization in Mass. How dare libraries carry it...



    So in other words SSM married teachers are treated like every one else, as the law requires...



    Not surprisingly there is no source for this claim and only two places mention it from a google search, the massresistance nutjob site source and WND from 2004. I can't prove it does not happen, but I can't find evidence it does.



    So your source has proven to be one big pile of stinking ****. Every claim I looked at was either unsourced, misleading or wrong.

    the power of force is never acceptable thing in a true in a free society.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not limited to just one. My point is there s a legal route to where we are. No one has violated the Constitution. Read and learn.


    II. ANALYSIS OF THE CURRENT STATUS OF THE RIGHT TO EDUCATION UNDER THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
    The Supreme Court has primarily encountered the argument that there is a federal constitutional right to education in the context of equal protection cases decided over the course of the past two decades.79 How- ever, well before the heyday of equal protection, in Meyer v. Nebraska8,0 the Court advanced the notion that seeking knowledge has a constitu- tional dimension under the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause."' In Meyer, a parochial school teacher challenged the constitu- tionality of a Nebraska statute under which he had been convicted for violating its prohibition against teaching foreign languages to students who had not yet passed the eighth grade.82

    (Snip)

    CONCLUSION

    The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun.514 For all its apparent novelty, a positive constitutional right to education is not new either. Rather, it has lain quiescent in the Constitution all these years, occasionally glimpsed at through the musings ofjudges and legal schol- ars. That it is not new-that it has existed all along-should be warrant enough for its formal recognition. The Bible also says, however, that to every thing there is a season.515 If one season be more propitious than another, it would seem that the education crisis has brought the season for recognition of the right full upon us.


    http://digitalcommons.law.msu.edu/cg...ontext=facpubs
    its very simple .....in order for congress to act, it must be given authority in it powers, education is not a (listed) delegated power.

    during the constitutional convention, a proposal was made for the federal government to be involved in education...it was rejected.

    the founders are very clear, congress powers are few and defined...........what is the meaning of "few" and "defined"

    constitutional law is the highest in the land no federal law, can override constitutional law.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    its very simple .....in order for congress to act, it must be given authority in it powers, education is not a (listed) delegated power.

    during the constitutional convention, a proposal was made for the federal government to be involved in education...it was rejected.

    the founders are very clear, congress powers are few and defined...........what is the meaning of "few" and "defined"

    constitutional law is the highest in the land no federal law, can override constitutional law.
    Again, those who actually study and know all the ins and outs of the matter say you're wrong. I'm sure I should ask a novice over an expert, as we all know, someone not knowing about something is always better than someone who does. The point is, you haven't addressed. The arguments made in rebuttal.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    Thanks for the directions. But why are you giving them to me?
    You honestly don't see the Conspiracy Theory lean in your post? Then you've provided your own answer ... LOL!
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, those who actually study and know all the ins and outs of the matter say you're wrong. I'm sure I should ask a novice over an expert, as we all know, someone not knowing about something is always better than someone who does. The point is, you haven't addressed. The arguments made in rebuttal.
    do you ever read the founders, and see what they created?

    one of the reasons Madison and Hamilton stated a bill of rights was not necessary...was becuase the new federal government was limited, and it had no power but the 18 in the constitution, and becuase they were limited, this prevented the federal government from violating the rights of the people, becuase no power of the Federal government have anything to do with an individual citizens ...except.......pirates counterfeiter and traitors.......and with the 16th......tax cheats.

    the federal government was given no role in the social life's of the american citiznen.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    Thanks for the directions. But why are you giving them to me?
    If you can't see the Conspiracy Theory lean to your posts then you have provided your own answer ... LOL!


    First off, you seem to be assuming all scientist are atheists, which is complete BS. Even a cursory review of the history of science and scientists in general would show how wrong you are. Even scientists who are self-proclaimed atheists are often spiritual in one sense or another, though they often don't call it that.

    Second, you're acting like science is the antithesis of religion, which is also complete BS. Religion and science can and do exist side-by-side. (In fact, that's the best place for both - on parallel paths.) Science is just trying examine our universe and understand why it works the way it does. There's nothing anti-religious about it. The only time there has ever been a problem between science and religion is when religious dogma finds itself on the wrong side of newly discovered reality. When that happens, religion must make the same adjustments as society and science itself must make, adapting to the newly discovered facts.

    Finally, you have continued to show an unreasoned fear of reality, which seems to have resulted in a persecution complex. Apparently, the world isn't the way your religion would like it to be, therefore, everyone else must be wrong and against you. That's almost the textbook foundation of a Conspiracy Theorist.
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, those who actually study and know all the ins and outs of the matter say you're wrong.
    they can say all they want to, the constitution does not lie......education is not a delegated power of congress.

    if it were the congress would have controlled it before jimmy carter

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