View Poll Results: Which is more crucial

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  • Freedom of Religion

    26 56.52%
  • Mandate to Evolve

    10 21.74%
  • Both are equally crucial

    10 21.74%
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Thread: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

  1. #471
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    While it maynot mean that they are morons, it does mean that they have no proof.
    Proof enough for them, you aren't part of that equation. your burden of proof is irrelevant. Obviously you are a... I don't know you never gave a spiritual identity.

    I assume you are a nihilist that doesn't want to be called a nihilist for some reason.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Proof enough for them, you aren't part of that equation. your burden of proof is irrelevant. Obviously you are a... I don't know you never gave a spiritual identity.

    I assume you are a nihilist that doesn't want to be called a nihilist for some reason.
    No, that's not proof. Proof can be proven. It's pretty much the same word. Something that cannot be demonstrated to others cannot be proven, it's not proof. Measurement makes the proof, it is what we use to prove things. Otherwise it's just opinion and personal interpretation without challenge. Not a form of proof.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    simplified.......why do people believe the state cannot act on an issue, and then in another breath say they can.
    They can't act one way on an issue, but they can another way. They can't say that it is wrong to be Jewish, but they can say it's okay. One way permits freedom, the goal of our government to promote freedom. The other way permits oppression, a violation of our constitution.

    So yes the state can do it's duty.

  4. #474
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    They can't act one way on an issue, but they can another way. They can't say that it is wrong to be Jewish, but they can say it's okay. One way permits freedom, the goal of our government to promote freedom. The other way permits oppression, a violation of our constitution.
    your stating to me, that if the schools teaches homosexuality is wrong...its oppression...which i buy that argument.

    then your stating to me if they dont teach homosexuality it right............its oppression........but i dont buy this one.

    explain to me how these are not oppression.


    Within months it was brought into the middle schools. In September, 2004, an 8th-grade teacher in Brookline, MA, told National Public Radio that the marriage ruling had opened up the floodgates for teaching homosexuality. “In my mind, I know that, `OK, this is legal now.' If somebody wants to challenge me, I'll say, `Give me a break. It's legal now,'” she told NPR. She added that she now discusses gay sex with her students as explicitly as she desires. For example, she said she tells the kids that lesbians can have vaginal intercourse using sex toys.

    By the following year it was in elementary school curricula. Kindergartners were given picture books telling them that same-sex couples are just another kind of family, like their own parents. In 2005, when David Parker of Lexington, MA – a parent of a kindergartner – strongly insisted on being notified when teachers were discussing homosexuality or transgenderism with his son, the school had him arrested and put in jail overnight.

    Second graders at the same school were read a book, “King and King”, about two men who have a romance and marry each other, with a picture of them kissing. When parents Rob and Robin Wirthlin complained, they were told that the school had no obligation to notify them or allow them to opt-out their child.

    In 2006 the Parkers and Wirthlins filed a federal Civil Rights lawsuit to force the schools to notify parents and allow them to opt-out their elementary-school children when homosexual-related subjects were taught. The federal judges dismissed the case. The judges ruled that because same-sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts, the school actually had a duty to normalize homosexual relationships to children, and that schools have no obligation to notify parents or let them opt-out their children! Acceptance of homosexuality had become a matter of good citizenship!<-----force being applied!

    Think about that: Because same-sex marriage is “legal”, a federal judge has ruled that the schools now have a duty to portray homosexual relationships as normal to children, despite what parents think or believe!

    In 2006, in the elementary school where my daughter went to Kindergarten, the parents of a third-grader were forced to take their child out of school because a man undergoing a sex-change operation and cross-dressing was being brought into class to teach the children that there are now “different kinds of families.” School officials told the mother that her complaints to the principal were considered “inappropriate behavior.”

    Libraries have also radically changed. School libraries across the state, from elementary school to high school, now have shelves of books to normalize homosexual behavior and the lifestyle in the minds of kids, some of them quite explicit and even pornographic. Parents complaints are ignored or met with hostility.

    Over the past year, homosexual groups have been using taxpayer money to distribute a large, slick hardcover book celebrating homosexual marriage titled “Courting Equality” into every school library in the state.

    It’s become commonplace in Massachusetts schools for teachers to prominently display photos of their same-sex “spouses” and occasionally bring them to school functions. Both high schools in my own town now have principals who are “married” to their same-sex partners, whom they bring to school and introduce to the students.

    “Gay days” in schools are considered necessary to fight “intolerance” which may exist against same-sex relationships. Hundreds of high schools and even middle schools across the state now hold “gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender appreciation days”. They “celebrate” homosexual marriage and move forward to other behaviors such as cross-dressing and transsexuality. In my own town, a school committee member recently announced that combating “homophobia” is now a top priority.

    Once homosexuality has been normalized, all boundaries will come down. The schools are already moving on to normalizing transgenderism (including cross-dressing and sex changes). The state-funded Commission on Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Youth includes leaders who are transsexuals.

    http://www.massresistance.org/docs/m...ts_of_ssm.html
    Last edited by Master PO; 08-02-13 at 11:37 PM.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, that's not proof. Proof can be proven. It's pretty much the same word. Something that cannot be demonstrated to others cannot be proven, it's not proof. Measurement makes the proof, it is what we use to prove things. Otherwise it's just opinion and personal interpretation without challenge. Not a form of proof.
    There are churches full of people who have seen proof. People have proven it to others billions of times. It's called conversion, just because out doesn't meet your rigor of proof doesn't mean it isn't proof.

    I don't know what your measure of proof is but that is a highly subjective thing. All I need for proof that gravity exist is that things fall, Isaak Newton didn't think that was enough. I am not saying that is wrong, just that my burden of proof is not as rigorous as Newtons or yours.

    but I can show someone that God exists to people, not you, your mind is made up, but others yes, I have.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    There are churches full of people who have seen proof. People have proven it to others billions of times. It's called conversion, just because out doesn't meet your rigor of proof doesn't mean it isn't proof.

    I don't know what your measure of proof is but that is a highly subjective thing. All I need for proof that gravity exist is that things fall, Isaak Newton didn't think that was enough. I am not saying that is wrong, just that my burden of proof is not as rigorous as Newtons or yours.

    but I can show someone that God exists to people, not you, your mind is made up, but others yes, I have.
    They have experience something they equate to personal testimony and contribute significance to it without verification. That is not proof.

    BTW, things falling is a reproducible demonstration.

    Also, I have no doubt that gods exist to people. Not that it means they exist.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    your stating to me, that if the schools teaches homosexuality is wrong...its oppression...which i buy that argument.

    then your stating to me if they dont teach homosexuality it right............its oppression........but i dont buy this one.

    explain to me how these are not oppression.
    Wait a minute, teaching that homosexuality is okay is perfectly fine, meaning it's okay that you are gay. Teaching that homosexuality is right us not the same thing. Because that also says that heterosexuality is not as right.

    You are interchanging the words that mean permissible with words that mean correct. I don't agree that homosexuality is right, if my kid was heterosexual and a school said that isn't correct that would be unacceptable, my kid would be out of that school in an instant. Enrolled in a private school that day. But telling my homosexual son that it's okay that he is gay is very different.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Within months it was brought into the middle schools. In September, 2004, an 8th-grade teacher in Brookline, MA, told National Public Radio that the marriage ruling had opened up the floodgates for teaching homosexuality. “In my mind, I know that, `OK, this is legal now.' If somebody wants to challenge me, I'll say, `Give me a break. It's legal now,'” she told NPR. She added that she now discusses gay sex with her students as explicitly as she desires. For example, she said she tells the kids that lesbians can have vaginal intercourse using sex toys.
    picket the school, sue, pies sexual harassment charges, do something. Don't just get outraged and expect the world to deal with it, GET INVOLVED IT'S YOUR KID FOR CHRIST SAKES. If you don't give a damn, I don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    By the following year it was in elementary school curricula. Kindergartners were given picture books telling them that same-sex couples are just another kind of family, like their own parents.
    They are, explain how they are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    In 2005, when David Parker of Lexington, MA – a parent of a kindergartner – strongly insisted on being notified when teachers were discussing homosexuality or transgenderism with his son, the school had him arrested and put in jail overnight.
    if the moron knew that was going to be discussed, find another school before enrolling. I have no sympathy for lazy parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Second graders at the same school were read a book, “King and King”, about two men who have a romance and marry each other, with a picture of them kissing. When parents Rob and Robin Wirthlin complained, they were told that the school had no obligation to notify them or allow them to opt-out their child.
    So what, there are private schools and home schooling. Again lazy parents no sympathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    In 2006 the Parkers and Wirthlins filed a federal Civil Rights lawsuit to force the schools to notify parents and allow them to opt-out their elementary-school children when homosexual-related subjects were taught. The federal judges dismissed the case. The judges ruled that because same-sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts, the school actually had a duty to normalize homosexual relationships to children, and that schools have no obligation to notify parents or let them opt-out their children! Acceptance of homosexuality had become a matter of good citizenship!
    i agree with the judge. Did he rule that it is illegal to leave public school or leave the state? Again lazy no sympathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Think about that: Because same-sex marriage is “legal”, a federal judge has ruled that the schools now have a duty to portray homosexual relationships as normal to children, despite what parents think or believe!
    solution, if parents disagree with the school, find alternative schools. There is no law mandating children attend public school. Parents approve of the curriculum by absenteeism. They don't care to learn the curriculum, they don't care to fight for their rights, they must not be that important.

    What is wrong with same sex marriage? Before you answer, there is a solution that doesn't involve the expense of private school, teach your kids that the school isn't always right about that. Lessons learned from parents have such a longer lasting affect. I often say "my father once told me..." I rarely or never tell people "My teacher once told Mr..." You have far more influence over your children if you are not a worthless parent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    In 2006, in the elementary school where my daughter went to Kindergarten, the parents of a third-grader were forced to take their child out of school because a man undergoing a sex-change operation and cross-dressing was being brought into class to teach the children that there are now “different kinds of families.” School officials told the mother that her complaints to the principal were considered “inappropriate behavior.”
    the only problem I have with this is the part where the Trans said now. There have always been different families. see the above post for the complaint of the parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Libraries have also radically changed. School libraries across the state, from elementary school to high school, now have shelves of books to normalize homosexual behavior and the lifestyle in the minds of kids, some of them quite explicit and even pornographic. Parents complaints are ignored or met with hostility.
    proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Over the past year, homosexual groups have been using taxpayer money to distribute a large, slick hardcover book celebrating homosexual marriage titled “Courting Equality” into every school library in the state.
    So what?
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It’s become commonplace in Massachusetts schools for teachers to prominently display photos of their same-sex “spouses” and occasionally bring them to school functions. Both high schools in my own town now have principals who are “married” to their same-sex partners, whom they bring to school and introduce to the students.
    So what, should the state say they can't? If so same for heterosexuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    “Gay days” in schools are considered necessary to fight “intolerance” which may exist against same-sex relationships. Hundreds of high schools and even middle schools across the state now hold “gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender appreciation days”. They “celebrate” homosexual marriage and move forward to other behaviors such as cross-dressing and transsexuality. In my own town, a school committee member recently announced that combating “homophobia” is now a top priority.
    Private school.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Once homosexuality has been normalized, all boundaries will come down. The schools are already moving on to normalizing transgenderism (including cross-dressing and sex changes). The state-funded Commission on Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Youth includes leaders who are transsexuals.
    Good, it's about time.

    look, homosexuality is normal, it is okay, and all these complaints are either lazy parents or xenophobia. This all falls on deaf ears as it should.
    Last edited by CLAX1911; 08-03-13 at 12:14 AM.

  8. #478
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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They have experience something they equate to personal testimony and contribute significance to it without verification. That is not proof.
    Explain how it isn't proof id it occurs billions of times. That is reproducible. It isn't necessarily through testimony. It ifs definite proof, just because you don't accept it and can't test it with science doesn't mean it isn't proven.
    BTW, things falling is a reproducible demonstration.
    so is conversion, buddhists, hindus, Jewish people, Islam, christianity. I think that accounts for billions of reproduced demonstrations. So you should have absolute proof just in that.
    Also, I have no doubt that gods exist to people. Not that it means they exist.
    Things only exist to people. The measurement of existence is compensable by the human mind. Nothing exists out side of us, we aren't here to say it exists, so therefore nothing would exist without humanity, before you go off saying things can exist without human perception I want absolute proof that it can.

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Explain how it isn't proof id it occurs billions of times. That is reproducible. It isn't necessarily through testimony. It ifs definite proof, just because you don't accept it and can't test it with science doesn't mean it isn't proven.
    It's not demonstrable, it exists only in someone's mind. Drop a ball a million times and the ball drops a million times. People can see that, photons can be measured, velocities recorded, etc. That's a reproducible measurement. People say "I saw X" or "I felt Y" are not repeatable measurements which can be demonstrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    so is conversion, buddhists, hindus, Jewish people, Islam, christianity. I think that accounts for billions of reproduced demonstrations. So you should have absolute proof just in that.
    Sure, there are lots of people who are believers is one form of god or another, or otherwise spiritual. It's a strong desire of mankind, a natural consequence of intelligence to wonder what next and want to have an answer for it. It's not proof. It's personal testimony.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Things only exist to people. The measurement of existence is compensable by the human mind. Nothing exists out side of us, we aren't here to say it exists, so therefore nothing would exist without humanity, before you go off saying things can exist without human perception I want absolute proof that it can.
    Things existed before humans, we have measured account of that. The world can exist without us, it has in the past.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    a minute ago you wanted to use the 14th...now its back to article 1 section 8 again.

    the general welfare is the 18 powers of congress.

    “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    “[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    “The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

    “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

    Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

    “No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 7

    In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.
    I'm not limited to just one. My point is there s a legal route to where we are. No one has violated the Constitution. Read and learn.


    II. ANALYSIS OF THE CURRENT STATUS OF THE RIGHT TO EDUCATION UNDER THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
    The Supreme Court has primarily encountered the argument that there is a federal constitutional right to education in the context of equal protection cases decided over the course of the past two decades.79 How- ever, well before the heyday of equal protection, in Meyer v. Nebraska8,0 the Court advanced the notion that seeking knowledge has a constitu- tional dimension under the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause."' In Meyer, a parochial school teacher challenged the constitu- tionality of a Nebraska statute under which he had been convicted for violating its prohibition against teaching foreign languages to students who had not yet passed the eighth grade.82

    (Snip)

    CONCLUSION

    The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun.514 For all its apparent novelty, a positive constitutional right to education is not new either. Rather, it has lain quiescent in the Constitution all these years, occasionally glimpsed at through the musings ofjudges and legal schol- ars. That it is not new-that it has existed all along-should be warrant enough for its formal recognition. The Bible also says, however, that to every thing there is a season.515 If one season be more propitious than another, it would seem that the education crisis has brought the season for recognition of the right full upon us.


    http://digitalcommons.law.msu.edu/cg...ontext=facpubs
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 08-03-13 at 01:04 AM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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