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Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

Which is more crucial

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .
ChrisL said:
As I said earlier though, I think schools and teachers should remain neutral on controversial matters, aside from teaching the facts.
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Age certainly plays a role here, but if we distinguish between information and opinion, I think there are places to discuss opinion. Eventually a student will ask. No value in pretending you don't have one. But, reason, evidence, the things schools should focus on should rule the day. Not ideology.
 
Boo Radley said:
Age certainly plays a role here, but if we distinguish between information and opinion, I think there are places to discuss opinion. Eventually a student will ask. No value in pretending you don't have one. But, reason, evidence, the things schools should focus on should rule the day. Not ideology.
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When I learned the theory of evolution in school, I don't remember my teacher ever giving her own opinion on the matter. She just taught without interjecting her own opinions.
 
ChrisL said:
When I learned the theory of evolution in school, I don't remember my teacher ever giving her own opinion on the matter. She just taught without interjecting her own opinions.
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Wasn't there. If it's a science class, giving a lecture on what the theory is. That seems appropriate. Religion class might do it differently. But if we're in philosophy, or even composition, discussing the areas of debate would be appropriate. And within that context, opinion and fact can be discussed.

Even in the science class, evaluating evidence would be more than appropriate. Saw some good work students in such a class where they evaluated the sources, discussed why they used them, sources they chose not to se and why, and what in these sources was fact, and what was opinion. It was a great exercise.

But, whenever you tackle anything controversial, you will be asked what your opinion is and why. Better to have it in the open, stated clearly as opinion, than hidden.
 
Boo Radley said:
Wasn't there. If it's a science class, giving a lecture on what the theory is. That seems appropriate. Religion class might do it differently. But if we're in philosophy, or even composition, discussing the areas of debate would be appropriate. And within that context, opinion and fact can be discussed.

Even in the science class, evaluating evidence would be more than appropriate. Saw some good work students in such a class where they evaluated the sources, discussed why they used them, sources they chose not to se and why, and what in these sources was fact, and what was opinion. It was a great exercise.

But, whenever you tackle anything controversial, you will be asked what your opinion is and why. Better to have it in the open, stated clearly as opinion, than hidden.
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But I'm not talking about students expressing their opinions. I'm talking about teachers perhaps teaching according to their own biases and ideals.
 
ChrisL said:
But I'm not talking about students expressing their opinions. I'm talking about teachers perhaps teaching according to their own biases and ideals.
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I agree with that. Merely argue they can express opinion as long as it is expressed that way, and the teaching is about reason and evidence.

There is also an area that wouldn't be opinion, but some here would call it that. The area of global warming would fall under that category.
 
Boo Radley said:
I agree with that. Merely argue they can express opinion as long as it is expressed that way, and the teaching is about reason and evidence.

There is also an area that wouldn't be opinion, but some here would call it that. The area of global warming would fall under that category.
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But what causes it could be considered a matter of opinion.
 
ChrisL said:
But what causes it could be considered a matter of opinion.
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An instructor should give the best evidence. Stating that he consensus is this, is doing his job properly. If he or she says man has no role in GW, he or she is guilty of putting opinion over best evidence.
 
Boo Radley said:
An instructor should give the best evidence. Stating that he consensus is this, is doing his job properly. If he or she says man has no role in GW, he or she is guilty of putting opinion over best evidence.
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No, they could say that we are not yet sure what causes it . . . because we aren't, just hypotheses right now.
 
Ikari said:
You're the one trying to get me to pay for your lunch so unapologetically. Y'all claim "it doesn't take a village", but you sure as heck are OK with stealing from the village to fund your own needs and kids. Socialists.
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The village is doing just fine without us. Don't force us to burn it down, comrade. ;)
 
ChrisL said:
No, they could say that we are not yet sure what causes it . . . because we aren't, just hypotheses right now.
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That would be a lie. A scientific hypotheses (theory which is the proper word) is more than not knowing. It's the bet evidence, and considered fact until proven otherwise.
 
Boo Radley said:
That would be a lie. A scientific hypotheses (theory which is the proper word) is more than not knowing. It's the bet evidence, and considered fact until proven otherwise.
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Nope, not a fact. A theory that is supported by limited evidence.

hy·poth·e·sis
/hīˈpäTHəsis/
Noun
A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
A proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
Synonyms
supposition - assumption - conjecture - presumption
 
ChrisL said:
Nope, not a fact. A theory that is supported by limited evidence.

hy·poth·e·sis
/hīˈpäTHəsis/
Noun
A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
A proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
Synonyms
supposition - assumption - conjecture - presumption
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Try this one:

When used in non-scientific context, the word “theory” implies that something is unproven or speculative. As used in science, however, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.

What is a Scientific Theory? | Definition of Theory | LiveScience
 
Boo Radley said:
Try this one:

When used in non-scientific context, the word “theory” implies that something is unproven or speculative. As used in science, however, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.

What is a Scientific Theory? | Definition of Theory | LiveScience
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Yes, but it still doesn't qualify as a fact. Plenty of theories throughout history have been proven wrong. I know you want to believe that man is entirely responsible for global warming, but I'm not buying that. I think it's probably a combination of many different factors.
 
ChrisL said:
Yes, but it still doesn't qualify as a fact. Plenty of theories throughout history have been proven wrong. I know you want to believe that man is entirely responsible for global warming, but I'm not buying that. I think it's probably a combination of many different factors.
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As close as you can get. It's not near as debatable as some suggest. It is based in the best available evidence and is considered fact. Gravity is a theory. It is possible one day we'll learn more and change that theory. But we don't pretend there's a serious anti gravity argument.

The point is not to debate GW, but that the instructor has to present the best available evidence as it is. The political debate (as there really is no scientific debate) happens outside the science class.
 
Boo Radley said:
As close as you can get. It's not near as debatable as some suggest. It is based in the best available evidence and is considered fact. Gravity is a theory. It is possible one day we'll learn more and change that theory. But we don't pretend there's a serious anti gravity argument.

The point is not to debate GW, but that the instructor has to present the best available evidence as it is. The political debate (as there really is no scientific debate) happens outside the science class.
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Best available evidence right now, which could possibly be proven as wrong at some point in the future, which is why it is very important that the teacher not teach it as if it's a fact.
 
ChrisL said:
Best available evidence right now, which could possibly be proven as wrong at some point in the future, which is why it is very important that the teacher not teach it as if it's a fact.
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No, he has no choice. There is scientific community that doubts it. He would be denying science.
 
ChrisL said:
Best available evidence right now, which could possibly be proven as wrong at some point in the future, which is why it is very important that the teacher not teach it as if it's a fact.
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Few scientific theories are taught as a fact - in science class - because one of the first things you learn in science class is the difference between a theory and a fact. It's a fact that the moon has been in orbit all of recorded history. The theory of gravity explains why it's in orbit and remains there* - but Newton's Theory of Gravity was "wrong", not a fact. Even Newton know it was wrong but it was the best he could do at the time. Einstein's Theory of Relativity, which "replaced" Newton, is also not a fact (and has been shown wrong, or maybe "not applicable to some things" is a better term) but it's the best we can do for now. The same goes for the Standard Model of quantum physics, which has more experimental support than any other theory in the history of science.


((*In actual fact, the moon is slowly moving away from us.;)))


But we do teach these theories as being commonly accepted - having a consensus among scientists in that field - so Boo Radley is right.
 
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MoSurveyor said:
Few scientific theories are taught as a fact - in science class - because one of the first things you learn in science class is the difference between a theory and a fact. It's a fact that the moon has been in orbit all of recorded history. The theory of gravity explains why it's in orbit and remains there* - but Newton's Theory of Gravity was "wrong", not a fact. Even Newton know it was wrong but it was the best he could do at the time. Einstein's Theory of Relativity, which "replaced" Newton, is also not a fact (and has been shown wrong, or maybe "not applicable to some things" is a better term) but it's the best we can do for now. The same goes for the Standard Model of quantum physics, which has more experimental support than any other theory in the history of science.


((*In actual fact, the moon is slowly moving away from us.;)))


But we do teach these theories as being commonly accepted - having a consensus among scientists in that field - so Boo Radley is right.
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So you think that teachers should teach it as undisputed fact? That's interesting considering that it is not.
 
ChrisL said:
So you think that teachers should teach it as undisputed fact? That's interesting considering that it is not.
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It's pretty close. Next best thing. It is not as debatable as you seem to think. Scientist are not debating it. And teachers would be guilty of opinion if they taught it like there was a debate among scientist.
 
Boo Radley said:
It's pretty close. Next best thing. It is not as debatable as you seem to think. Scientist are not debating it. And teachers would be guilty of opinion if they taught it like there was a debate among scientist.
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There are other scientists who are no schleps who DO disagree.

This is what they should teach. This is the truth and the facts.

However, there is also a small but vocal number of scientists in climate and climate-related fields that disagree with the consensus view.
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Global warming controversy
 
ChrisL said:
There are other scientists who are no schleps who DO disagree.

This is what they should teach. This is the truth and the facts.



Global warming controversy
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There are very, very few of them, and most outside the actual field. Related fields, as in your link, are not the same as the experts in the actual field. They are an overwhelming minority, with no where near the support of the others. It would be biased and dishonest to treat them as equal.
 
Boo Radley said:
There are very, very few of them, and most outside the actual field. Related fields, as in your link, are not the same as the experts in the actual field. They are an overwhelming minority, with no where near the support of the others. It would be biased and dishonest to treat them as equal.
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No it wouldn't at all. They are scientists with credentials. There is nothing wrong with mentioning that to the kids. What you are suggesting is dishonest.
 
ChrisL said:
No it wouldn't at all. They are scientists with credentials. There is nothing wrong with mentioning that to the kids. What you are suggesting is dishonest.
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No it isn't. I can find those believe in fairies. This shows you can find an minority view of anything. But these few are not really engaged in any serious debate. They have next to no standing, and are really nothing more a sign of the modern world where you can find anyone to say anything.
 
Boo Radley said:
No it isn't. I can find those believe in fairies. This shows you can find an minority view of anything. But these few are not really engaged in any serious debate. They have next to no standing, and are really nothing more a sign of the modern world where you can find anyone to say anything.
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At one time, it was a minority belief that the earth was round too. :roll: Get real, of course teachers should cover all the bases. You're being super ridiculous. It would do absolutely no harm and take no time to mention exactly what was stated in my post.
 
Is this poll a joke? And here we go with the climate change stuff again. There's a thread or three for that, I think.
 
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