View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #71
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Posts #63 and #64 answered this.

    To keep the discussion going, let's assume we were to agree that drunk driving laws exist primarily to protect people from themselves (i.e., point conceded). What point would you be trying to make with this?
    That is is right and proper to do so.
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I think you are draaaastically overestimating the costs of providing "free" emergency care, especially considering the workers are on staff. If you could provide a link that this is a substantial part of our healthcare costs, then I'll take you seriously.
    I didn't say a thing about it being substantial, I said taxpayers should not fund one penny of an irresponsible person's care. Stop trying to twist my words.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #73
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I didn't say a thing about it being substantial, I said taxpayers should not fund one penny of an irresponsible person's care. Stop trying to twist my words.
    If it's not substantial in any sense of the word, then why are you worrying about it? If 99.9% of the health care system is being used by people who pay for it, sounds like it's working pretty well.

    I think you're just looking for something to whine about.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #74
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    If it's not substantial in any sense of the word, then why are you worrying about it? If 99.9% of the health care system is being used by people who pay for it, sounds like it's working pretty well.

    I think you're just looking for something to whine about.
    No, you're just looking for some way to shift the blame. I don't care if it costs taxpayers $1.95 a year, if it's something they're not supposed to be paying, they shouldn't be paying for it. It's not the only problem out there by any means, or even the largest, but that's where this thread has gone and pretending that just because there are bigger issues out there, we can ignore anything not at the top of the pile is asinine.
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  5. #75
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am astonished at the degree people demand the government control people to the finest detail. Of course, that also means demanding the government control you - ie protect you from yourself.

    Way back at the start of this country, a French philosopher named Torqueville toured the USA marveling at this new concept of uneducated people running their own government. While he saw this new concept of almost unrestricted personal freedom as amazing, he predicted it would not last. In his opinion that due to human nature, people would vote to outlaw anything a person does not like or do. Since there is almost nothing everyone agrees on, then ultimately almost everything would be regulated, outlaws or restricted. In short, he predicted Americans would become the most regulated, watched and constrained people with endless new laws and regulations.

    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    It really depends on what we're talking about. Do I believe in owning the responsibilities of the decisions you make? Yes. That's part and parcel with liberty.

    But that doesn't automatically mean the government has absolutely no use. There are far-flung possibilities of every decision, and sometimes people just have **** luck.

    I'll use two examples as kind of the difference in what I mean.

    I get into disagreements all the time with other pro-choicers about what I believe is a man's right to choose his level of involvement when a woman makes a reproductive choice unilaterally. The thing is, if she makes a decision alone, the obvious consequences of that decision are hers alone unless someone else volunteers. Men do have a right to not be directly responsible for someone else's decision.

    On the other side, you have the welfare state. I have heard some really good arguments about the ways in which this can actually disempower the poor by empowering bad businesses to sell them for less. But then you've got plain ole' bad luck. People do deserve help for that in a civilized society. NOT helping them takes them out of a society for longer than they would otherwise be -- possibly forever. Helping them gets them back on their feet faster, assuming welfare is structured in such a way as to encourage that. While the welfare state is undoubtedly flawed, the answer is not to take it away completely, and it is different from one person being directly responsible for another's decisions; it's an entire society deciding that bad luck, or even just one dumb move, shouldn't completely remove you from society.

    Things are different on a macro vs. a micro scale, and there's good evidence that on a macro scale, it's better for all of us for society to not resemble the jungle in its ruthlessness.

    All of that said, I do believe in people agreeing with what they pay for, which is one of the reasons I think citizenship and residency should be easier to change.

  6. #76
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    What's the point of freedom if you have to be responsible?

    It's sarcasm, people.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  7. #77
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    The proper role of government is to protect people and promote their freedom. Social darwinism is currently a favorite concept of many conservatives, and especially libertarians. Such a concept is contradictory to the idea of democracy. For instance, the civil rights act goes against social darwinism. Black people aren't allowed to use public drinking fountains? Not allowed to eat at the same restaurants as white people? Too bad, the government isn't there to force anybody to do anything, right?

    Except black people weren't born equal for most of this nation's existence. The only way to solve this problem was through legislation and regulation.

    And why would the US enter world war 2? Other countries are fighting over land and resources? Not our problem. Slave labor? Not our problem.

    Part of responsibility is making sure that everybody else has the same freedom and opportunity you do. If you don't think the government should allow people these opportunities, than maybe it's you who isn't terribly responsible.
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  8. #78
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    The proper role of government is to protect people and promote their freedom. Social darwinism is currently a favorite concept of many conservatives, and especially libertarians. Such a concept is contradictory to the idea of democracy. For instance, the civil rights act goes against social darwinism. Black people aren't allowed to use public drinking fountains? Not allowed to eat at the same restaurants as white people? Too bad, the government isn't there to force anybody to do anything, right?

    Except black people weren't born equal for most of this nation's existence. The only way to solve this problem was through legislation and regulation.

    And why would the US enter world war 2? Other countries are fighting over land and resources? Not our problem. Slave labor? Not our problem.

    Part of responsibility is making sure that everybody else has the same freedom and opportunity you do. If you don't think the government should allow people these opportunities, than maybe it's you who isn't terribly responsible.
    The proper role of government depends upon what government we're talking about (state, local, federal) and what powers and restrictions that government has been granted. Sociology is nowhere in the grant for our federal, state or local governments. I don't believe the word "opportunity" is even used in our Federal Constitution. Perhaps it could be in one of the 50 state's constitutions.

  9. #79
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, you're just looking for some way to shift the blame. I don't care if it costs taxpayers $1.95 a year, if it's something they're not supposed to be paying, they shouldn't be paying for it. It's not the only problem out there by any means, or even the largest, but that's where this thread has gone and pretending that just because there are bigger issues out there, we can ignore anything not at the top of the pile is asinine.
    So when someone asks you about your views on personal responsibility, your go-to talking point is how free ER care is wrong? This apparently to you outshines all of the real examples of personal responsibility.

    Tell me about all of these government programs where you pay for someone else's cancer you mentioned on page 1.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 07-28-13 at 06:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  10. #80
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That is is right and proper to do so.
    All those posts for that? I mentioned civil commitments because it's an even more straightforward example of how people's liberties are suspended for their own protection. Of course, it requires that there be probable cause of mental illness with subsequent risk of harm to self.

    The state can intervene if you're threatening suicide or driving drunk. So therefore... what? I.e., how does this tie back into personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    It really depends on what we're talking about. Do I believe in owning the responsibilities of the decisions you make? Yes. That's part and parcel with liberty.


    But that doesn't automatically mean the government has absolutely no use.

    Who ever suggested that?
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-29-13 at 03:27 AM.

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