View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #31
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    The proper role of government is such:

    - Maintain a justice system to prevent/seek retribution for coercion/violence between citizens
    - Organize national defense
    - Maintain the few programs that would be near impossible in the free market, IE: public roads, radio spectrum division, etc.

    The government has no role in legislating non-violent morality, or telling people what they should or shouldn't consume. It's our lives, our bodies, our decisions.
    I agree with most of your positions except I would add two more responsibilites (which is why I am libertarian-LEFT).

    Public Education grades 1 -12
    Public Health

    I think government should be responsible for maintaining a basic level of education because I believe only an educated population has the capacity to remain truly informed before making decisions. Otherwise, education level would be based on individual wealth; leading to dominance, repression, and rebellion (as shown by past history).

    I support government health care because the State should be responsible for maintaining a baseline of health to prevent plagues etc., and provide medical protection since most citizens simply cannot afford (personal insurance coverage) it on their own. I strongly support a system similar to Canada or the UK. Doctors benefit well under such systems, pharmaceutical companies still make reasonable profits, and only insurance companies lose out.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #32
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I agree with most of your positions except I would add two more responsibilites (which is why I am libertarian-LEFT).

    Public Education grades 1 -12
    Public Health

    I think government should be responsible for maintaining a basic level of education because I believe only an educated population has the capacity to remain truly informed before making decisions. Otherwise, education level would be based on individual wealth; leading to dominance, repression, and rebellion (as shown by past history).

    I support government health care because the State should be responsible for maintaining a baseline of health to prevent plagues etc., and provide medical protection since most citizens simply cannot afford (personal insurance coverage) it on their own. I strongly support a system similar to Canada or the UK. Doctors benefit well under such systems, pharmaceutical companies still make reasonable profits, and only insurance companies lose out.
    I can agree, but both systems should be opt-out. If you want to take those tax dollars and get private health care or private education, you should be able to do that. In Germany, for instance, if you don't want to be in the public health care system, you can opt-out and go private. This falls in with number #3 on my list. If the local private education or health services are inadequate, there should always be a government option.

    I don't know why we don't do that. It's a win for both sides, everybody gets what they want. I think the problem comes from the people that believe the only way such a program could work is by use of force and coercion.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  3. #33
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I can agree, but both systems should be opt-out. If you want to take those tax dollars and get private health care or private education, you should be able to do that. In Germany, for instance, if you don't want to be in the public health care system, you can opt-out and go private. This falls in with number #3 on my list. If the local private education or health services are inadequate, there should always be a government option.

    I don't know why we don't do that. It's a win for both sides, everybody gets what they want. I think the problem comes from the people that believe the only way such a program could work is by use of force and coercion.
    That's reasonable, except I would require annual proof (in the education area) that you are actually providing your children with an equivalent level of education. Perhaps annual state run testing, along with receipts for private school or documents showing work done while home-schooled. Failure to provide satisfactory equivalence would negate your opt-out option and require re-entry into the State system.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  4. #34
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    That's reasonable, except I would require annual proof (in the education area) that you are actually providing your children with an equivalent level of education. Perhaps annual state run testing, along with receipts for private school or documents showing work done while home-schooled. Failure to provide satisfactory equivalence would negate your opt-out option and require re-entry into the State system.
    Totally agree. They still need to be able to pass all of the same standards as public students.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  5. #35
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    This is cryptic and kind of reveals your discomfort with personal responsibility, presumably because your political philosophy is so strongly welfare-oriented that you cannot stomach people having to take responsibility (even painfully) for their own maladaptive choices. Why else would you be trying to broadbrush people "who argue about personal responsibility?"
    Because the philosophy that informs this discussion is one essentially built on selfishness, and that's disgusting. The gist of a "personal responsibility" argument is always about blaming people for having bad luck. It's not really about people who have made bad choices. It's about claiming that bad choices brought about unfortunate people's bad luck. That's an illusory way of making yourself and your own selfishness feel better, to pretend that you deserve the good things you have and that others who don't have those things deserve not to.

    My philosophy is only "welfare-oriented" if community and teamwork are dirty words, which they are in a fundamentally selfish philosophy. The idea that we sink or swim together, by working together, and sharing in the rewards and sacrifices of that work, doesn't allow one person to rise up by abusing others. And instead of looking down on people who have it worse than we do, we have a responsibility to them to help them up, just as they would have to us were our roles reversed.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  6. #36
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am astonished at the degree people demand the government control people to the finest detail. Of course, that also means demanding the government control you - ie protect you from yourself.

    Way back at the start of this country, a French philosopher named Torqueville toured the USA marveling at this new concept of uneducated people running their own government. While he saw this new concept of almost unrestricted personal freedom as amazing, he predicted it would not last. In his opinion that due to human nature, people would vote to outlaw anything a person does not like or do. Since there is almost nothing everyone agrees on, then ultimately almost everything would be regulated, outlaws or restricted. In short, he predicted Americans would become the most regulated, watched and constrained people with endless new laws and regulations.

    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    Republican government (the belief system, not the political party) endows its citizens with greater freedoms in the anticipation they will be responsible enough to keep society from slowly grinding its way toward ruin. That includes people with money and power helping those without it in anyway and every way they can, not just through government. The Founding Fathers were very self conscious about this, with many of them losing money or going bankrupt in their efforts to form a republican government. George Washington would not accept a salary even when his plantation was trending down economically.

    Whenever it comes to trying to make ends meet on any specific issue, the only demographic in the United States that consistently makes any compromises or takes on any burdens is the middle class. Everyone else thinks they should get every scrap they have and more.

    My response is broadly the same as the response of tyrants in the Roman Republic: people who can't take the responsibility along with their freedom can't be trusted with either.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-27-13 at 12:28 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  7. #37
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Jesus ****ing christ, you're trolling now I swear to god. I've told you 15 times I don't want the government in this. However, also like I've explained 15 god damn times, you're already paying for other people's poor health decisions in your insurance premiums.
    You do not read what is written, which is clearly obvious. Yes, we pay for it now, but in a free market options will arise where it is far less likely you are paying for other peoples bad decisions. PERIOD. Why you can't not grasp the future is a mystery, but clearly you do not get or understand the idea of a free market which brings to questions your chosen lean.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  8. #38
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So you advocate for the "no-insurance" solution? Otherwise you will be paying for other people's ****ty decisions. Why should people pay for 300 lb fatties and not pot smokers? Nobody is forcing you to have insurance. Why don't you grow a pair and cancel your health insurance. You talk like you want everyone to pay for themselves, but will you actually do it?
    Having insurance is part of being responsible IMO. If you choose not to have insurance then you'd better be prepared to pay for it out of your own pocket because society doesn't owe either the 300lb fatties or the pot smokers one red cent.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #39
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Having insurance is part of being responsible IMO. If you choose not to have insurance then you'd better be prepared to pay for it out of your own pocket because society doesn't owe either the 300lb fatties or the pot smokers one red cent.
    Uh, ok... Is somebody here suggesting everybody pay for the uninsured through the government? I know I didn't. Here I am talking about personal freedom and responsibility, you know, the topic of the thread, and you're off on health care reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    You do not read what is written, which is clearly obvious. Yes, we pay for it now, but in a free market options will arise where it is far less likely you are paying for other peoples bad decisions. PERIOD. Why you can't not grasp the future is a mystery, but clearly you do not get or understand the idea of a free market which brings to questions your chosen lean.
    Hrm... so the guy who agreed with you 15 times that the government shouldn't be in health care is somehow betraying his libertarian lean?

    You do know that insurance agencies are generally non-governmental right? That's why I said "If you have health insurance, you're already paying for other's mistakes."

    So by all means, keep calling me a bad libertarian because I don't want the government in health care.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  10. #40
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    The government has three legitimate functions.

    1) Providing for the common defense

    2) Insuring that the rights of citizens aren't violated

    3) Insuring that people and companies are assessed the true cost of their actions - which is really an extension of 2.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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