View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #21
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I get that, but he was talking more about insurance aspects. His statement was essentially 'why should I have to pay for their health care?'. The fact is, when you have insurance, you're paying for people who make a LOT of ****ty decisions. For instance, what do you think is worse from a healthcare perspective: smoking weed, or eating mcdonalds every day?
    Actually, I wasn't referring to insurance at all. Everyone ought to have it and if they do something stupid that requires medical attention, then yes, everyone who bought into the insurance already knows what they were buying into and it's funded by the group. The stupider people probably weigh heavier on the group, but they ought to be charged more for having bad habits in the first place.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am astonished at the degree people demand the government control people to the finest detail. Of course, that also means demanding the government control you - ie protect you from yourself.

    Way back at the start of this country, a French philosopher named Torqueville toured the USA marveling at this new concept of uneducated people running their own government. While he saw this new concept of almost unrestricted personal freedom as amazing, he predicted it would not last. In his opinion that due to human nature, people would vote to outlaw anything a person does not like or do. Since there is almost nothing everyone agrees on, then ultimately almost everything would be regulated, outlaws or restricted. In short, he predicted Americans would become the most regulated, watched and constrained people with endless new laws and regulations.

    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    I don't think it's the proper role of government to protect you from yourself. I do however believe it is the proper role of government to protect us from each other.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  3. #23
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    No it's not. People make the decision to smoke, to eat non healthy food, to not exercise, to skydive, etc. The outcome of their decisions is their responsibility.
    Right up until they go to the emergency or operating room, can't pay for their treatment, and someone else has to foot the bill. Being responsible for your decisions is great - as long as you and you alone are responsible for the consequences. That simply isn't what happens in reality.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #24
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Right up until they go to the emergency or operating room, can't pay for their treatment, and someone else has to foot the bill.
    I don't think we should. They were the one sucking down 2 packs a day, they're the ones who have to be responsible for the cost of their treatment. If not, let them die.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't think we should. They were the one sucking down 2 packs a day, they're the ones who have to be responsible for the cost of their treatment. If not, let them die.
    Which sounds nice in principle but in the emergency room it's hard as hell to determine just what is the cause of a particular emergency or ailment when the surgeon is trying his damnedest just to save a life. How do we make a distinction between people who end up on the operating table because they made stupid decisions and people who end up there because they simply got the short end of the stick?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #26
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    So many who argue about personal responsibility proceed to ignore responsibility to each other. We all should be held accountable for our willful mistakes, but that includes the willful choice not to act, and accountability does not necessarily equate to punishment. We would not need a government to protect us if we would stop trying to prey on each other.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  7. #27
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    So many who argue about personal responsibility proceed to ignore responsibility to each other. We all should be held accountable for our willful mistakes, but that includes the willful choice not to act, and accountability does not necessarily equate to punishment. We would not need a government to protect us if we would stop trying to prey on each other.
    This is cryptic and kind of reveals your discomfort with personal responsibility, presumably because your political philosophy is so strongly welfare-oriented that you cannot stomach people having to take responsibility (even painfully) for their own maladaptive choices. Why else would you be trying to broadbrush people "who argue about personal responsibility?"

    When there is trade, both parties are seeking to get something they value more than the thing they're giving up for it. Across the board, this is universally true about trade, which includes buying things. Beyond that, naturally, they're seeking to maximize what they're getting. All parties engaged in trade seek this. Some are more skilled at it than others. You cannot blame them for doing this, anymore than you can blame NBA players for trying to score baskets when they're on offense (even when they're winning).

  8. #28
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So magical non-insurance options will appear?
    Nobody said that. Things go better when you discuss what people say, not what they do not say.

    Free Market = more options.

    I'd think a 'Libertarian' would understand that.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  9. #29
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Right up until they go to the emergency or operating room, can't pay for their treatment, and someone else has to foot the bill. Being responsible for your decisions is great - as long as you and you alone are responsible for the consequences. That simply isn't what happens in reality.
    Yeah, we need to get rid of that whole 'go to the er for free' thing as well. Thanks for reminding me.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  10. #30
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Nobody said that. Things go better when you discuss what people say, not what they do not say.

    Free Market = more options.

    I'd think a 'Libertarian' would understand that.
    Jesus ****ing christ, you're trolling now I swear to god. I've told you 15 times I don't want the government in this. However, also like I've explained 15 god damn times, you're already paying for other people's poor health decisions in your insurance premiums.

    If you have absolutely anything to rebut this statement go ahead. If you're going to keep whining about something I never said, we're done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Actually, I wasn't referring to insurance at all. Everyone ought to have it and if they do something stupid that requires medical attention, then yes, everyone who bought into the insurance already knows what they were buying into and it's funded by the group. The stupider people probably weigh heavier on the group, but they ought to be charged more for having bad habits in the first place.
    Sorting out what is healthy and unhealthy is a lot more complicated than you imagine. We all make hundreds of decisions a day based on our health, and there isn't anybody standing behind us to evaluate us. Over 50% of our population is morbidly obese, and yes, you're paying for all of them in your premium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It's not complicated at all. If you caused your own problem, you pay for the solution or you drop dead. Your fault, your problem. It cleans out the gene pool.
    So you advocate for the "no-insurance" solution? Otherwise you will be paying for other people's ****ty decisions. Why should people pay for 300 lb fatties and not pot smokers? Nobody is forcing you to have insurance. Why don't you grow a pair and cancel your health insurance. You talk like you want everyone to pay for themselves, but will you actually do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Which sounds nice in principle but in the emergency room it's hard as hell to determine just what is the cause of a particular emergency or ailment when the surgeon is trying his damnedest just to save a life. How do we make a distinction between people who end up on the operating table because they made stupid decisions and people who end up there because they simply got the short end of the stick?
    This is what I tried to explain to our little kitty cat friend. He thinks there's some kind of magic scanner that can tell "Oh, you ate too many doritos and smoked too many cigarettes, so we're cutting off your insurance."
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 07-27-13 at 05:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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