View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #161
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    When did the federal government under the founders control open up their first almshouse?
    Why are you asking me about the government when the assertion you challenged was that private individuals have a responsibility to take care of those less fortunate than themselves?
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am astonished at the degree people demand the government control people to the finest detail. Of course, that also means demanding the government control you - ie protect you from yourself.

    Way back at the start of this country, a French philosopher named Torqueville toured the USA marveling at this new concept of uneducated people running their own government. While he saw this new concept of almost unrestricted personal freedom as amazing, he predicted it would not last. In his opinion that due to human nature, people would vote to outlaw anything a person does not like or do. Since there is almost nothing everyone agrees on, then ultimately almost everything would be regulated, outlaws or restricted. In short, he predicted Americans would become the most regulated, watched and constrained people with endless new laws and regulations.

    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    it is at its best when it protects the minority against the tyranny of the majority ....

  3. #163
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am astonished at the degree people demand the government control people to the finest detail. Of course, that also means demanding the government control you - ie protect you from yourself.

    Way back at the start of this country, a French philosopher named Torqueville toured the USA marveling at this new concept of uneducated people running their own government. While he saw this new concept of almost unrestricted personal freedom as amazing, he predicted it would not last. In his opinion that due to human nature, people would vote to outlaw anything a person does not like or do. Since there is almost nothing everyone agrees on, then ultimately almost everything would be regulated, outlaws or restricted. In short, he predicted Americans would become the most regulated, watched and constrained people with endless new laws and regulations.

    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    It's a mix, yes there has to be room for great extensive personal freedoms and responsibilities, but there has to be a strict framework behind it if you overstep you personal freedoms and responsibilities if they should endanger others or infringes on the personal freedoms of other so much that the law has to step in to protect the people who's personal freedoms and rights are being infringed upon.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by windowdressing View Post
    it is at its best when it protects the minority against the tyranny of the majority ....
    Right up until the minority think they get to impose their will on the majority, that is.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Right up until the minority think they get to impose their will on the majority, that is.
    I was thinking Brown v. the Board of Education and The Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example ... Would you include either of these in your list of the minority imposing its will on the majority?

  6. #166
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your argument has been soundly refuted. And you ignore what has been said to you.

    What you are ignoring is the reality that the people in our elected government are acting as much more than mere individuals.

    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.
    Up until this point I think you are right. I pretty much disagree with your political views across the board I think, and I'm pretty sure I'm in strong agreement with Federalist's political views, but I'm afraid this isn't one of his best arguments, and you make solid points here.

    But...

    Continue reading and you will see phrases for collective action for the community - not the individual. Acting for the COMMON DEFENSE and the GENERAL WELFARE. Those are very communitarian concepts that are the opposite of individualism. And its right there in the Constitution of the USA as the purpose of the document.

    Catherine Bowen wrote a book called MIRACLE AT PHILADELPHIA about the writing of the Constitution. You should read it. One of the miraculous things about our Constitution and our system of government is that it truly works a miracle in that it transcends normal individual people into much much more - the voice of the people and the people are just another word for society.
    Why was there such collective "we" language back then? Was it because the Founders were actually all about we and common and general welfare? Was it because they wanted adults who happened to not have much to be supported by those who did, as though the former were dependents of the latter? Or was it because they wanted to communicate to the world that at that moment in time there was collective agreement that the territories wanted to form their own country and do right by its citizens? That's the real question. Was the use of the phrases "We the People" and "promote the general welfare" in order to proclaim that those who are suffering here are owed care by those who are not suffering? Or was it to proclaim that there is collective agreement about the establishment of a new country and the agreement that the government thereof would be intended to promote freedom generally, rather than be devised for ulterior motives?

    If you (haymarket and Federalist) are going to keep going on about whether the US is really all about collectivism or individualism, you have to think critically about what people in those days were really trying to communicate (rather than try to use what they literally said to our own present day political advantages).

    If the U.S. is in fact really about collectivism as evidenced by "We" and "general welfare," then why is there freedom of ideas (i.e. speech, religion, press)? After all, if it's all about "we," then we really ought to believe the same thing, right?

    And that is the miracle of America. For 225 years we have been trying to balance the needs of society with the needs of the individual.
    I agree about the "balance" part. But "needs?" No I don't think that this is actually about society's needs nor about individuals' needs.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-31-13 at 12:31 AM.

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.
    Once again, you make the error of assuming that some number of particular individuals (in this case, certain voters) are able to indicate the preferences of society. This is a false premise.

  8. #168
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    "Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?"

    No, it isn't - but that doesn't preclude welfare and other forms of help we should give to people in certain situations.
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  9. #169
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    "Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?"

    No, it isn't - but that doesn't preclude welfare and other forms of help we should give to people in certain situations.
    I generally agree that government should not protect me from myself, but at the same time I don't mind not having lead paint as an option even though it may be cheaper and I'm a cheapskate.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #170
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I generally agree that government should not protect me from myself, but at the same time I don't mind not having lead paint as an option even though it may be cheaper and I'm a cheapskate.
    To me, things like lead paint are not just protecting you from you - it's protecting others from you.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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