View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #151
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    Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    To subordinate them to the broader association of individuals.
    Correct. To subordinate some individuals to another group of individuals. Not to "society", just to another group of individuals.

  2. #152
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    there it is reality!

    so instead of following the constitution, to want to follow what washingtion does based on reality, and not constititonal law.

    i can see Madison getting your shoe in his rear as you kick him down the steps of congress while saying" get out of here with your stupid constitution"
    They are following the Constitution.
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  3. #153
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You use the phrase "the people" a lot. You mean "some particular people", which obviously is NOT "every person".

    When someone uses the term "the people", I know I am dealing with a collectivist, and an intellectually dishonest collectivist to boot.
    The Constitution uses the phrase WE THE PEOPLE.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #154
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Perhaps. But they are all still individuals. And the people who voted for them are all still individuals.

    None of these particular individuals are "society". They are merely a subset of the total set of individuals in society.

    If you can tell me what "society" wants and prefers WITHOUT having those words come out of the mouth of some individual but from "society" itself, then perhaps I will be convinced that this "needs of society" stuff is not simply collectivist claptrap.
    Your argument has been soundly refuted. And you ignore what has been said to you.

    What you are ignoring is the reality that the people in our elected government are acting as much more than mere individuals.

    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.

    The Constitution of the United States is clear. Go back and read it. Start at the beginning and read the words WE THE PEOPLE. It does not say "I as an individual". Its WE THE PEOPLE.

    Continue reading and you will see phrases for collective action for the community - not the individual. Acting for the COMMON DEFENSE and the GENERAL WELFARE. Those are very communitarian concepts that are the opposite of individualism. And its right there in the Constitution of the USA as the purpose of the document.

    Catherine Bowen wrote a book called MIRACLE AT PHILADELPHIA about the writing of the Constitution. You should read it. One of the miraculous things about our Constitution and our system of government is that it truly works a miracle in that it transcends normal individual people into much much more - the voice of the people and the people are just another word for society.

    And that is the miracle of America. For 225 years we have been trying to balance the needs of society with the needs of the individual. Sometimes we get it right. Sometimes we don't. But in the end its like many have observed - we are still the best form of government going on the planet.

    To continue to say we are only individuals and the people we elect into government for all of society is to ignore what has been explained to you. And the ostrich defense is never a solid one.
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  5. #155
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Not really an argument you can't hope to win. It was supported by Anglo-English culture, of which most the Fathers were adherents, and starts recorded history when King Athelstan opened the first almshouse in York.
    When did the federal government under the founders control open up their first almshouse?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #156
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am astonished at the degree people demand the government control people to the finest detail. Of course, that also means demanding the government control you - ie protect you from yourself.

    Way back at the start of this country, a French philosopher named Torqueville toured the USA marveling at this new concept of uneducated people running their own government. While he saw this new concept of almost unrestricted personal freedom as amazing, he predicted it would not last. In his opinion that due to human nature, people would vote to outlaw anything a person does not like or do. Since there is almost nothing everyone agrees on, then ultimately almost everything would be regulated, outlaws or restricted. In short, he predicted Americans would become the most regulated, watched and constrained people with endless new laws and regulations.

    What is your opinion of the proper role of government?
    the thread title is not consistent with your op.

    you would be pretty hard pressed to find many people who don't believe in personal freedom and responsibility - although for my money the emphasis should be on responsibility.
    the role of government is a completely different question. According to many on the right I am a supporter of nanny statism, but nothing annoys me more than people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions .... which in my experience is not an indication of voting intention.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

  7. #157
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    it depends on how you define teh freedom

    l can say for the second option that people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions as long as these consequences dont harm the others
    What you said didn't make sense.

    Why would somebody not be responsable for their actions if it affects somebody else.

    So if I kill somerbody I am not responsable for that because it affected somebody else?

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    No it's not. People make the decision to smoke, to eat non healthy food, to not exercise, to skydive, etc. The outcome of their decisions is their responsibility.
    So if a doctor has apatient that comes in with a heart problema, the doctor will have to analyze every day of that patients life to discover if he did it to himself or it was just a fluke?

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    For example, ever have been filling up and it doesn't cut off right and a little bit of gas runs down your car and some on the ground. Did you then drive off?

    OMG! That's ILLEGAL! YOU committed a hazardous materials spill. Even if not deliberate and you not liable, YOU DID NOT REPORT THE HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SPILL YOU CAUSED! FELONY! FELONY!

    And then I get to rage that you grotesquely endangered the lives of others. A bus of children with an electrical short could pull up, and that HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SPILL YOU DID AND DIDN'T REPORT could burn every innocent little child on that bus to death - a horrible way to die! You evil bastard engaging in ILLEGAL dangerous actions without giving a damn about anyone but yourself!

    And if I don't drive a car, then I get to rage at you and everyone else in cars as pure evil, willing to burn little children alive, destroy the land, water and air... at least you - because of your ILLEGAL activities!
    Just to be curious, how do you drip anything when the American pumps have the rubber hose cover?

  10. #160
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    They are following the Constitution.
    no hay, they are not....do you see education, housing in the constitution...no.

    where does the congress get legislative authority outside of d.c. .. say on private land or state land.......their is no authority in the constitution for congress to exercise power over such.

    where is congress authority to redistribute wealth from one american to another...........?

    even you know congress is outside its 18 powers.

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