View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #141
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have no idea what that even means as it applies to the duly elected legitimate United States government representing the people.

    You are repeating yourself over and over and making no sense.
    I understand that it is essential for you to not understand. I trust others do, and that is all I require.

  2. #142
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    thats not quite right, libertarians believe government is limited, because the federal government has 18 powers only.

    we want the government to do secure the rights of the people, and leave them alone.

    when someone violates the rights of another person, then it is time for government to act, until then its does the duties it has, and shuts up.
    It has whatever the people decide that it has because the people are the ones who created the government in the first place. The problem with libertarians is that they assert that they're right and everyone else is wrong, yet they lack any significant political power to actually enact any of the changes or vote for any of the positions that they advocate. So, when faced with almost complete unpopularity, libertarians will act like they're protecting the world from itself when, in reality, they're just another failed political philosophy.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #143
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So what? It is absurd to say that an individual person is not an individual person.

    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.

    YOu need to read Constitution again.

    WE THE PEOPLE - not I as an individual..... its WE THE PEOPLE..... acting for the COMMON DEFENSE and the GENERAL WELFARE. Those are very communitarian concepts that are the opposite of individualism. And its right there in the Constitution of the USA.
    sorry but your wrong.....i don't send people to congress to control/ or set society.

    congress has no social duties in the life's of the people at all......all one has to do is look at article 1 section 8 of the constitution.

    where in congress 18 powers do the federal government and the people intersect.......?..nowhere........only pirates, counterfeiters and traitors are government's ......only customers.

    added to this this clause from the constitution: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

    this says directly that congress has no legislative power outside of d.c. or unless the state gives them authority for needful buildings only.......they have no social duties for the people, and no legislative authority over anything the state does not agree to.
    Last edited by Master PO; 07-29-13 at 09:04 PM.

  4. #144
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It has whatever the people decide that it has because the people are the ones who created the government in the first place. The problem with libertarians is that they assert that they're right and everyone else is wrong, yet they lack any significant political power to actually enact any of the changes or vote for any of the positions that they advocate. So, when faced with almost complete unpopularity, libertarians will act like they're protecting the world from itself when, in reality, they're just another failed political philosophy.
    show me where congress has the authority to step outside its 18 powers?

  5. #145
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    My point is that those who wish to subordinate the individual to "society" really want to subordinate some individuals to other individuals.
    What you are ignoring is the reality that the people in our elected government are acting as much more than mere individuals.

    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.

    YOu need to read Constitution again.

    WE THE PEOPLE - not I as an individual..... its WE THE PEOPLE..... acting for the COMMON DEFENSE and the GENERAL WELFARE. Those are very communitarian concepts that are the opposite of individualism. And its right there in the Constitution of the USA.

    Catherine Bowen wrote a book called MIRACLE AT PHILADELPHIA about the writing of the Constitution. You should read it. One of the miraculous things about our Constitution and our system of government is that it truly works a miracle in that it transcends normal individual people into much much more - the voice of the people and the people are just another word for society.

    And that is the miracle of America. For 225 years we have been trying to balance the needs of society with the needs of the individual. Sometimes we get it right. Sometimes we don't. But in the end we are still the best from of government going on the planet.

    And that makes me very proud to be an American.
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  6. #146
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry but your wrong.....i don't send people to congress to control/ or set society.

    congress has no social duties in the life's of the people at all......all one has to do is look at article 1 section 8 of the constitution.

    where in congress 18 powers do the federal government and the people intersect.......?..nowhere........only pirates, counterfeiters and traitors are government's ......only customers.

    added to this this clause from the constitution: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

    this says directly that congress has no legislative power outside of d.c. or unless the state gives them authority for needful buildings only.......they have no social duties for the people, and no legislative authority over anything the state does not agree to.
    Your rather "unique " interpretation bears no more resemblance to reality that does a thirty foot purple unicorn.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #147
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your rather "unique " interpretation bears no more resemblance to reality that does a thirty foot purple unicorn.
    there it is reality!

    so instead of following the constitution, to want to follow what washingtion does based on reality, and not constititonal law.

    i can see Madison getting your shoe in his rear as you kick him down the steps of congress while saying" get out of here with your stupid constitution"

  8. #148
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What you are ignoring is the reality that the people in our elected government are acting as much more than mere individuals.
    Perhaps. But they are all still individuals. And the people who voted for them are all still individuals.

    None of these particular individuals are "society". They are merely a subset of the total set of individuals in society.

    If you can tell me what "society" wants and prefers WITHOUT having those words come out of the mouth of some individual but from "society" itself, then perhaps I will be convinced that this "needs of society" stuff is not simply collectivist claptrap.

  9. #149
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.
    You use the phrase "the people" a lot. You mean "some particular people", which obviously is NOT "every person".

    When someone uses the term "the people", I know I am dealing with a collectivist, and an intellectually dishonest collectivist to boot.

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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    My point is that those who wish to subordinate the individual to "society" really want to subordinate some individuals to other individuals.
    To subordinate them to the broader association of individuals.

    Society is nothing as inert-sounding as a "group of individuals." It is the ongoing relations and interactions of those individuals directed toward shared, mutually beneficial goals. Goals that people implicitly agree to work toward by belonging to society and and sharing in its benefits.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

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