View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #131
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You try to make it sound like anyone not a libertarian has some secret list of government powers outside of the Constitution. Which is nonsense.

    no its just that people on the right wish to use the power of government for their goals, just as people on the left wish to use the same power for their goals....thru the power of FORCE.

    this can be described, when i run into people who hate it when the government violates the constitution when the don't like it, and praise government for violating the constitution, when they support a specify government action.

  2. #132
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That is expressed through our duly elected peoples government in the form of law following the US Constitution.
    Those people who were elected are individuals. The people that elect them are individuals. Just plain old garden variety individuals like you and me. So when you say "what society wants" what you really mean is "what some particular individuals want."

    That proves my point. You can ONLY ever know the wants and preferences of an individual. You cannot know what "society" wants.

  3. #133
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A part of this comes back to the eternal questions about the balance between the individual and society individuals in a society.
    So I went ahead and fixed that for you .

  4. #134
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Those people who were elected are individuals. The people that elect them are individuals. Just plain old garden variety individuals like you and me. So when you say "what society wants" what you really mean is "what some particular individuals want."

    That proves my point. You can ONLY ever know the wants and preferences of an individual. You cannot know what "society" wants.
    So what? It is absurd to say that an individual person is not an individual person.

    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.

    YOu need to read Constitution again.

    WE THE PEOPLE - not I as an individual..... its WE THE PEOPLE..... acting for the COMMON DEFENSE and the GENERAL WELFARE. Those are very communitarian concepts that are the opposite of individualism. And its right there in the Constitution of the USA.
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  5. #135
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Those people who were elected are individuals. The people that elect them are individuals. Just plain old garden variety individuals like you and me. So when you say "what society wants" what you really mean is "what some particular individuals want."

    That proves my point. You can ONLY ever know the wants and preferences of an individual. You cannot know what "society" wants.
    It can't be said that the many minds of society form a literal gestalt consciousness, but it is human nature to seek those who agree with our perceptions, desires, and goals and to draw solidary and conviction from the organizations that arise from such agreements; to the extent that people will alter or put aside dissenting opinions to sustain that solidarity.

    There is not absolute concurrence on the subject of gay marriage among the right-wing, but whatever disagreement exists is not meaningful enough to create a serious crack in the political agency of the Republican Party. We at least know conservatives who are favorable toward marriage equality don't prefer it to the extent that it serves as a huge corrective influence on the platform of the Republican Party.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  6. #136
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So what? It is absurd to say that an individual person is not an individual person.

    When an individual person is elected by the people to a legislative body, and they are empowered by the people and that body is empowered by the people with authority to act on behalf of the people as its legitimate government, they transcend and go beyond a mere individual. They together become the Congress or they together become the Legislature or they together become the Council. And that is not an individual entity. It is a group entity acting on behalf os society and is empowered by the people to do that.

    YOu need to read Constitution again.

    WE THE PEOPLE - not I as an individual..... its WE THE PEOPLE..... acting for the COMMON DEFENSE and the GENERAL WELFARE. Those are very communitarian concepts that are the opposite of individualism. And its right there in the Constitution of the USA.
    When you use the term "the people", you really mean "some subset of the people in society".

    So once again, you are conflating what some particular individual want and prefer with what "society" wants and prefers.

  7. #137
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    When you use the term "the people", you really mean "some subset of the people in society".

    So once again, you are conflating what some particular individual want and prefer with what "society" wants and prefers.
    I'm not sure what you hope to prove through these observations, other than the concept of society is subject to certain limitations.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  8. #138
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    When you use the term "the people", you really mean "some subset of the people in society".

    So once again, you are conflating what some particular individual want and prefer with what "society" wants and prefers.
    I have no idea what that even means as it applies to the duly elected legitimate United States government representing the people.

    You are repeating yourself over and over and making no sense.
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So I went ahead and fixed that for you .
    Nothing was broken to be fixed. What you did was like puncturing four car tires with a nine inch nail because one of them was flat and you thought they needed to match.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #140
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I'm not sure what you hope to prove through these observations, other than the concept of society is subject to certain limitations.
    My point is that those who wish to subordinate the individual to "society" really want to subordinate some individuals to other individuals.

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