View Poll Results: Is it the proper role of government to pass laws to protect you from yourself?

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  • Yes, if the government passed laws to protect me from myself, it then protects everyone else too.

    4 5.48%
  • No, people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

    55 75.34%
  • IDK/Other

    14 19.18%
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Thread: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

  1. #121
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Lets cut the crap here and cut to the chase.

    Do you accept the United States government and the government of your State as legitimate?
    Of course I do. I'm simply examining your earlier comment where you describe the need for balance between the individual and society.

    The problem you have is that you have no way of achieving that balance because, any given individual can demonstrate his wants and preferences, society cannot do so.

    Only an individual can tell you his wants and preferences. Society can't, so there's no way to accommodate those wants and preferences. We simply have no possible way of knowing what they are.

  2. #122
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's really the question, it tends to be the libertarian crazies who act like the government is some alien entity imposed on them from above and not answerable to anyone, which is absurd. We, the people, voted them in. They are our responsibility and when they do things we don't like, it's our job to vote them out.
    I agree. All this posing and posturing about how does the government speak for individuals is a bunch of crap. This nonsense about "i didn't sign no social contract" is also crap. Either you accept that our government is legitimate or you don't. And if you don't that open up a whole 50 gallon drum barrel of questions.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Of course I do. I'm simply examining your earlier comment where you describe the need for balance between the individual and society.

    The problem you have is that you have no way of achieving that balance because, any given individual can demonstrate his wants and preferences, society cannot do so.

    Only an individual can tell you his wants and preferences. Society can't, so there's no way to accommodate those wants and preferences. We simply have no possible way of knowing what they are.
    Then that issue has left the station. Our government by your own admission is legitimate. So deal with it.

    Society acts through its legitimate government which it can change periodically at will. And it is government acting for the people that try to balance these factors discussed previously. If you do not accept that - there is no point in continuing any sort of discussion as its based from your end on somethign other than reality.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Then that issue has left the station. Our government by your own admission is legitimate. So deal with it.

    Society acts through its legitimate government which it can change periodically at will. And it is government acting for the people that try to balance these factors discussed previously. If you do not accept that - there is no point in continuing any sort of discussion as its based from your end on somethign other than reality.
    For those who are following this thread, it is important to realize that when someone spouts crap about "balancing the needs of the individual against the needs of society", they are literally asking the impossible. It is impossible to EVER know what "society" wants. It is only possible to know what any particular individual wants. Thus, it is literally impossible to balance the wants of the individual against the wants of society.

    We can only balance the needs of individuals against each other. Violent collectivist interventionists don't like this, because this puts all individuals on an equal footing. They want some individuals to be rulers over others, and this "balance the individual and society" is an invention to create something with higher authority than any individual.
    Last edited by Federalist; 07-29-13 at 08:10 PM.

  5. #125
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    This was never supported by the founders.
    Not really an argument you can't hope to win. It was supported by Anglo-English culture, of which most the Fathers were adherents, and starts recorded history when King Athelstan opened the first almshouse in York.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-29-13 at 08:11 PM.
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  6. #126
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    For those who are following this thread, it is important to realize that when someone spouts crap about "balancing the needs of the individual against the needs of society", they are literally asking the impossible. It is impossible to EVER know what "society" wants. It is only possible to know what any particular individual wants. Thus, it is literally impossible to balance the wants of the individual against the wants of society.
    No . They are simply describing what we in this nation have been trying to do for two and a quarter centuries now.

    YOur nonsense about what society wants and what the individual wants is the crap being spouted.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's really the question, it tends to be the libertarian crazies who act like the government is some alien entity imposed on them from above and not answerable to anyone, which is absurd. We, the people, voted them in. They are our responsibility and when they do things we don't like, it's our job to vote them out.
    thats not quite right, libertarians believe government is limited, because the federal government has 18 powers only.

    we want the government to do secure the rights of the people, and leave them alone.

    when someone violates the rights of another person, then it is time for government to act, until then its does the duties it has, and shuts up.

  8. #128
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    No . They are simply describing what we in this nation have been trying to do for two and a quarter centuries now.

    YOur nonsense about what society wants and what the individual wants is the crap being spouted.
    Then please tell me how you know what "society" wants. Do you hear the voice of "society" in your head? Has "society" written down what she wants on stone tablets?

  9. #129
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    thats not quite right, libertarians believe government is limited, because the federal government has 18 powers only.

    we want the government to do secure the rights of the people, and leave them alone.

    when someone violates the rights of another person, then it is time for government to act, until then its does the duties it has, and shuts up.
    You try to make it sound like anyone not a libertarian has some secret list of government powers outside of the Constitution. Which is nonsense.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #130
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    Re: Do you believe in personal freedom and responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Then please tell me how you know what "society" wants.
    That is expressed through our duly elected peoples government in the form of law following the US Constitution.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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