View Poll Results: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

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  • Yes, unions killed Detroit

    19 40.43%
  • No, unions are not at fault

    28 59.57%
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Thread: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

  1. #81
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    In Michigan, not the city.
    Jefferson North still has a plant. I'm not sure how many other plants exist in the city.

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    when manufacturers can go virtually anywhere in the world and force U.S. workers to compete with workers whose cost of living is only a fraction of theirs, that doesn't work (for the workers, that is -- but works beautifully for the super wealthy and vulture capitalists). There's a race to the bottom and it has accelerated with the deline of unionization ... blaming unions is a tactic used by those ripping us off and too many people buy it ...

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    you cannot blame solely the unions for what happened to Detroit. there were multiple factors that caused it happen

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Nobody has said that they were the only cause, but they most certainly were a significant cause, perhaps the most significant cause. Why do you think that dodging that fact makes the argument wrong? Unions have demonstrably given massive amounts of money and influence to getting Democratic politicians elected for the express reason of funding and supporting their agenda. There is no question about this whatsoever. In fact, without their funding and influence, it's questionable whether these politicians would have gotten elected at all.

    Detroit has problems because they have all of the financial requirements that they had before being a right-to-work state. Changing to right-to-work doesn't invalidate all of the union contracts they've written over the years.

    Why don't you understand that?
    Sure they did. The question the OP raised was, "Did unions bankrupt Detroit"? Most of the posters who apparently are anti-union folks like yourself have said yes, they did. But they would be wrong.

    Unions were not the only cause for Detroit's financial troubles. They may have been the leading cause, but they weren't the only cause. So, no matter how many times you guys try to spin this in your attempts to lay blame squarely on the (auto) unions, you cannot blame Detroit's problems squarely on them. There are several reasons Detroit is in the position it's in. Pensions sought and received through union efforts that weren't renegotiated over time were just part of the problem.
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Sure they did. The question the OP raised was, "Did unions bankrupt Detroit"? Most of the posters who apparently are anti-union folks like yourself have said yes, they did. But they would be wrong.

    Unions were not the only cause for Detroit's financial troubles. They may have been the leading cause, but they weren't the only cause. So, no matter how many times you guys try to spin this in your attempts to lay blame squarely on the (auto) unions, you cannot blame Detroit's problems squarely on them. There are several reasons Detroit is in the position it's in. Pensions sought and received through union efforts that weren't renegotiated over time were just part of the problem.
    I don't think anyone could deny that their shrinking tax base had a devastating effect on the city. They're down over 1,000,000 people. In a city that has an income tax, that's devastating.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't think anyone could deny that their shrinking tax base had a devastating effect on the city. They're down over 1,000,000 people. In a city that has an income tax, that's devastating.
    Now, we're getting somewhere. This we can agree on. That wasn't so hard now, was it?
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Sure they did. The question the OP raised was, "Did unions bankrupt Detroit"? Most of the posters who apparently are anti-union folks like yourself have said yes, they did. But they would be wrong.

    Unions were not the only cause for Detroit's financial troubles. They may have been the leading cause, but they weren't the only cause. So, no matter how many times you guys try to spin this in your attempts to lay blame squarely on the (auto) unions, you cannot blame Detroit's problems squarely on them. There are several reasons Detroit is in the position it's in. Pensions sought and received through union efforts that weren't renegotiated over time were just part of the problem.
    Had it not been for union influence on the politics of Detroit, they almost certainly could have worked out the rest of the problems. You can keep repeating your pro-union nonsense all you want and asserting that everyone who disagrees must hate unions, but the facts are the facts. The biggest single influence on the bankruptcy of Detroit are the unions. Deal with it.
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't think anyone could deny that their shrinking tax base had a devastating effect on the city. They're down over 1,000,000 people. In a city that has an income tax, that's devastating.
    That's true, but we have to ask ourselves why the American automobile industry failed in the first place? Certainly, a lot of it was mismanagement and stupidity, they kept making cars that Americans didn't want to buy, but at least some of it was the cost, they were charging more for cars than they were worth, a lot of that was to pay off overpaid union workers. It always comes around to the unions. Had they not had to pay the union workers more, and granted, if they had a clue what kind of cars people wanted, then maybe the Detroit auto industry could have been saved and a million people wouldn't have left.

    Of course, recognizing the reality, I'll just be called an anti-union activist or something.
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's true, but we have to ask ourselves why the American automobile industry failed in the first place? Certainly, a lot of it was mismanagement and stupidity, they kept making cars that Americans didn't want to buy, but at least some of it was the cost, they were charging more for cars than they were worth, a lot of that was to pay off overpaid union workers. It always comes around to the unions. Had they not had to pay the union workers more, and granted, if they had a clue what kind of cars people wanted, then maybe the Detroit auto industry could have been saved and a million people wouldn't have left.

    Of course, recognizing the reality, I'll just be called an anti-union activist or something.
    You won't be called that by me. I agree with you. The question really is: "Can we really blame the unions for those whopping pension and healthcare benefits for retirees? And for stupid work rules that strangle corporations and turn 8-hour days into 5?"

    My answer is, "No, we really can't." The position GM management took was, "We don't want a strike. Let's settle this." Kinda' like a lazy parent spoiling a 3-year-old.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You won't be called that by me. I agree with you. The question really is: "Can we really blame the unions for those whopping pension and healthcare benefits for retirees? And for stupid work rules that strangle corporations and turn 8-hour days into 5?"

    My answer is, "No, we really can't." The position GM management took was, "We don't want a strike. Let's settle this." Kinda' like a lazy parent spoiling a 3-year-old.
    Of course we can! Just because the very existence of the unions relies on getting the most benefits for their members, that doesn't mean that what they actually do is valid or respectable. They buy politicians through voting blocs and financial contributions, unions have some of the most aggressive lobbyists around and a lot of politicians feel that if they want to get elected, they have to get union money, regardless of the deals they have to sign with the devil. Therefore, liberals have traditionally gotten into bed with the unions and then kicked the bills down the road, just so they can get into office, and now that there's no more road to kick the can down, we're seeing how union and liberal politics really work. We absolutely can blame the unions for operating this way, just like we can blame the liberal politicians for trading political integrity for union money.

    And when it comes time to deal with a strike, most of those liberal politicians in office have already been paid for by union money, why do you think they roll over so easily?
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