View Poll Results: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

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  • Yes, unions killed Detroit

    19 40.43%
  • No, unions are not at fault

    28 59.57%
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Thread: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

  1. #51
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, they're not the only reason but they are a major contributing factor and they were, without question, the straw that broke the camel's back. That's the insidious nature of these massive union benefit packages, they get larger and larger and larger every year as more and more people qualify and modern medical technology keeps the retirees alive for longer.
    But even your above argument attempts to place the blame squarely on unions although you cleverly add life span and health care into the mix. All this tells me is you're fixated on blaming the other guy's political values on the problem when truth be told it wasn't just social engineering alone that caused the mess. Ask yourself why did auto companies leave Detroit even after auto unions were effectively destroyed, pension plans were effectively done away with and the state (I presume) shifted to a right-to-work state? Why did Detroit continue to have problems?

    I can agree with you that unions played a significant role here, but you're being dishonest if you can't admit that there were other factors that were involved, i.e., a static tax code that never changed as industries left and local government did nothing to create incentives to lure new industry to the area, i.e., shipping. Or better yet, shift your business model to produce something other than cars.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-21-13 at 05:15 PM.
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    The world is full of contradictions.

    In America we have people who hate unions proudly driving BMW's and Mercedes, the two biggest unionized cars on the planet. The irony is huge in that there is a very high likelihood that said anti union Americans BMW or Mercedes was built by a German who is a union member. So the idiot is driving a German Union car designed and originally funded by Hitler and is on his/her way to an 'Anti Union Rally'. Oh yes.

    And let's not forget the 'hot and bothered' minorities, feminists, gays and indignant 23 year old's that are driving to their 'Stop Hate' rally in their beloved VolksWagen designed by Adolf Hitler as the ideal car. Oh yes. It's all very interesting ; )
    I drive a Lexus (Toyota). Toyota closed its only unionized plant in the world (California) in 2009. It was a joint venture with GM, idling 4,700 workers.

    If I had to make a WAG as to why Toyota found unions an anchor around their necks, I would guess union work rules and pension costs. GM is currently supporting 432,000 retirees and their spouses with very generous benefits. Toyota pays an hourly wage equal to, or slightly above, GM. Its pension and healthcare benefits are less Cadillac and more closely resemble that of the average American worker. It has long been the goal of union rules, not to increase productivity in a fair way,* but to increase the number of workers and turn down productivity. We fail to address that elephant in the room quite efficiently.

    My car has no equal American-made for its price point. The interior is leather; most options are included in the list price; service is beyond excellent; the ride is awesome; the accouterments are luxurious. An American-made car, for the money, can't come close. I don't even bother to look at them anymore.

    *To assist the very company whose success their paychecks depend upon.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    No. The whole union copout claims have been used and used and used and overused. Unions are not at fault.


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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    It is not because of Unions at all.


    If you own a BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagon you are driving a Union vehicle. German carmakers are killing American car makers and German car companies are the most unionized companies in the entire world. They even have corporate unions for their white collar workers..


    So no, it has nothing to do with Unions. At all. It DOES have something to do with something else, on the human level though.


    Do read into what I'm saying.



    On a side note. It is hilarious to watch some anti union American rant about how horrible unions are then brag about their German Union BMW or Mercedes car that is a full blown Union vehicle made my Union members.
    It is Japanese cars that are out selling American cars not German cars.

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.
    Anybody who answered either way in the poll is wrong. No exceptions.

    The poll ignores any middle ground. It's not an either/or scenario. Yes, unions have played a part, but no they are not solely responsible. There were other people on the other side of the negotiating table who approved of the deals that led to today.

    If you look at most any similar scenario around the country you will notice that the vast majority of them include contracts or systems that were set up decades ago in "the good times", and with no mechanism for adjustment for when times wouldn't be so good.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.
    I would have to say it partially contributed to it.It was the residents who continued to vote for those scum in office who mismanaged the money,the corrupt scum and the scum in office who would continue handing out extremely generous pensions.
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    It is Japanese cars that are out selling American cars not German cars.
    Japan has auto unions too.

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Japan has auto unions too.
    Most Japanese cars sold in America are made in America by non union workers.

    "More than 407,000 jobs in the U.S. are due to Japanese automakers and their dealers, reports the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association. And nowadays, Japanese makers are producing most of the cars they sell in the U.S. in North America -- 68% altogether."

    7 in 10 Japanese cars sold in U.S. made in N. America

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by BretBierle View Post
    Republicans always over taxing the poor and under taxing the rich
    The effective rate of tax on the poor is zero. Less if you consider welfare a negative tax, and I do. The top 10% pay over half the taxes (income tax). The numbers don't change a lot if you consider all forms of tax. What exactly do you consider a non overtax on the poor and a non undertax on the rich?






    The top10% of incomes

  10. #60
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Let's make it a flat tax with no deductions and nobody can rightfully ***** about it.
    i cannot see that happening, our tax code has been turned into a tool to use against people and a controlling device for government.

    i dont favor a flat tax, but a comsunpton, a straight flat tax does remove some of the shackles of government, and as a consumption removes them all.

    however government is not going to be in favor of removing any of the shackles that has been placed on us.
    Last edited by Master PO; 07-21-13 at 07:05 PM.

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